Frank Herberts Dune vs the USA and UK

[Deepcrush]

I've been thinking about this since myself and seafort battled over morals and the topic of the Indepence war(s) came about.

I find a large number of parallels between the events and actions of the two.

Sardukar = British Redcoats. The best army the world had to offer. Head to head were unbeatable in the open field. Their fleet was unmatched and could smash all before them. It was by the pure sight of these men that whole armies ran in fear. They would at their prime control over a quarter of the world and bare no equal in war. All dreamed to be part of them or atleast as powerful as them. They were the envy of the world. Even the colonists wanted to be like them. This was a mistake as no colony raised man could hope to match them in open battle. Skill in battle was marked by the 2, 3 and even 4 to one kill ratio. Ruled the world long ago.

Fremen = American colonists. A mixed number of people, different in many ways. Sent to produce profit and trade for the empire. Through the years and many bloody wars learned to battle with the land instead of against it. The harsh life lead to fighters to whom the knife was more important then a gun. Men, women and children were all part of survival and all were part of any battles that may come. Move unseen and unheard through the lands. Attack in ambush, in small numbers, in the dark of night. Avoiding a more formal war and instead fought pitched raids. Where the S=BR could kill many times their number in open battle, the same was true of the F=AC in raids and ambush. Now replaces the S=BR as the dominent power.

So, any thoughts on this? Myself and seafort got pretty heavy on this. It shows the difference in history teaching across the pond but I felt that there were a large number of things that were of good line to match. America has been yelled at for not knowing the history behind the regions in which we fight. It seems the same is true about England and their views on the US.

I have goals two fold here. First to see if maybe some of the ideas of power shift for F.H. Dune came from the fighting between the US and England. Second to see what other different views our different nations may have on the wars of 1776 and 1812. Please speak freely and plainly.

[Sionnach Glic]

Well, I suppose there are some connections between the two, but you could probably come up with similarities for virtualy everything with those books.

[Deepcrush]

Maybe, but this seems to be a powerful connection to me and something I would like to explore. However I can't do such alone.

[Sionnach Glic]

Well, I'd be happy to lend a hand to the discussion if you need it. I do teach history, after all, so I may be usefull on that front.

[Deepcrush]

Well then, if you'd please. What do you think of the comparisons I've made? Do you have any thoughts for or against?

[Sionnach Glic]

The comparisons between the Fremen and the Colonists seem pretty alright, and I can't see much of a stretch to compare the two, there.

Sardukar = British Redcoats. The best army the world had to offer. Head to head were unbeatable in the open field. Their fleet was unmatched and could smash all before them.

That's pretty spot on as well. The British were the world's greatest naval power and their empire generated a massive amount of wealth, allowing them to have a large and effective army.

It was by the pure sight of these men that whole armies ran in fear.

I think Napolean would disagree with that, there.

The comparisons between the two groups seem pretty okay. I can't really comment on the similarity of the actual conflict between the Sardaukar and the Fremen, though, as I haven't read those books in a long, long time.

[Deepcrush]

I never said all armies but, that short man was different then most.

The thing that crossed my mind was that the British were the best at their craft. There was no better. However they did suffer when faced one particular group. American Indians were well versed in facing off against British troops and often won against a superior numbered enemy. American colonists over the years began to fight in a very similar way know as "Forehand-Backhand". This is why so many where hired by England to fight in the Seven Years War. Later, they became known as Longknives. They took the name because they rather to fight the French and later the British with close combat instead of ranged fire (also they carried really long knives to help with stabbing people). A style of "Forehand-Backhand" is still in practice today in the US but it is mostly just for kids games and for tradition.

PS, my left arm was crap for Backhand. Go figure huh.

[Mikey]

I voted "yes" but I don't think it was as clear as Deep thinks. The American colonists won victories by practicing guerilla and native tactics; the Fremen merely held off wholesale slaughter by the Harkonnens by such tactics. Their decisive victory, under Paul-Muad'Dib, came when united into a large column, engaged in a frontal assault, and used both atomics and ginormous honking worms.

Additionally, there were the redcoats themselves, and then there were superior units fighting within or alongside them - the Hessians and the Royal Marines, for example. There were no such special units within the Sardaukar.

[Deepcrush]

The Sardukar did have such special troops. They were named Officers. Any Sardukar that showed advanced abilities was promoted to this rank. It was also the only way to gain rank. The difference was that they remained with their units and weren't seperated to form their own.

[Sionnach Glic]

True, but they weren't organised into seperate units on their own, were they?

[Deepcrush]

The difference was that they remained with their units and weren't seperated to form their own.

Follow the eyes...

[Mikey]

But there were no elite units within the Sardaukar. The Royal Marines, for example, at the time of the American Revolution trained with certain ammunition and close weapon types that the redcoats didn't, and were known for a level of ferocity that was NOT known among the redcoats.

[Sionnach Glic]

Ooops.

Though in that case, they're more like....well, officers. Except these officers are actualy useful on the battlefield.

[Deepcrush]

But there were no elite units within the Sardaukar. The Royal Marines, for example, at the time of the American Revolution trained with certain ammunition and close weapon types that the redcoats didn't, and were known for a level of ferocity that was NOT known among the redcoats.

That is the reason why even today the Royal Marines are so respected in the US. Also they didn't rape or razed any towns like british army was known for.

[Mikey]

More like Mobile Infantry officers than our contemporary officers... they actually do stuff.

But the fact remains that it is a valid point of difference between the redcoats and the Sardaukar. And the British Navy was the main instrument of awe and fear of the Empire, rather than the army, although I suppose that would be difficult to portray in the setting of Dune - what with the Guild outside of Imperial control and all.