Another Take On Avatar

[Tsukiyumi]

While I certainly get a lot of the criticism aimed at Avatar, some points of contention seem either explainable, or just strange to argue about, IMO.

Explainable

1) the derivative plot:

While the plot certainly borrowed heavily from other sources, it didn't strike me as being as derivative as it's made out to be. "Guy falls for native woman and turns against his own people" has been done a number of times, sure. Dances With Wolves was a derivative work, and still made for a great movie.

2) Navi victory:

Was achieved by use of surprise, terrain, and determination. Not exactly impossible. As others have pointed out, this victory is only a temporary one, as the humans may send a military expedition at the next available opportunity (at least a decade). However, the cost of mounting such an attack may not be reasonable; it's mentioned that the conflict was over the unobtanium under Home Tree, and that the nearest comparable deposit was "200 klicks" away. The company may just decide to go after easier sources rather than commit a sufficient force to eliminate the Navi. Also, the PR backlash at home might be enough to eliminate this option.

3) one-dimensional characters:

Mostly, I agree with this argument. The characters are exaggerated stereotypes in order to make the message blindingly obvious for the average moviegoer. For a seasoned sci-fi fan, it was unnecessary, but in order to reach as many people as possible with the message, and make as much money as possible, it was probably necessary. Anything that gets the average Joe Mortgage to give a sh*t about the environment, even for a few hours, is a good thing in my book.

Strange

1) the environmental message:

What the hell is wrong with having an obvious environmental message in a mainstream film? As I said above, the average citizen needs all the prodding about it they can get. I still see people tossing their trash out the window of their cars all the time, and going for the easier/cheaper option when by now they should be well aware of the damage they're causing to the ecosystem. If people really just can't be bothered to care, they should do the rest of us a favor and jump into a trash quarry. Less people = more resources for the people who do give a sh*t.

2) rooting for the humans:

This sort of ties into the above. Maybe it's a cultural thing for me, but anyone rooting for the greedy assholes trying to wipe the natives out and steal their land/minerals is seriously f*cked up mentally. Especially after it's noted that this isn't the only deposit of the mineral on the planet, merely the closest/most convenient. I wonder if the same people who find it acceptable to kill people and take things they want on a national/global level would be A-okay with me clobbering them with a pipe wrench and taking their car and money. After all, I need/want those things, and they have those things. Using the same logic, I'd be justified.

3) military tech

Is it realistic for the humans to use gunpowder based weapons this far in the future? Why not? As we've discussed before, there's no need to reinvent the wheel, especially when in the context of a profit-based mission. This could also explain the apparent weakness of the cockpit glass on the vehicles; most civilian vehicles nowadays don't use bullet-resistant glass, and neither do some military vehicles, for cost and other reasons. Also note the word "resistant".

Other

1) four-limbed Navi in a six-limbed ecosystem

As Tyyr pointed out, this is obviously because Neyteri needed to be doable, and most of us aren't Chakat-lovers. It's a movie, and the plot dictated that Jake's love interest be attractive. Also, it makes the Navi easier to relate to for the audience.

2) not the best thing since sliced bread

Mikey's point about this movie being seriously overhyped is another one I agree with. I liked it quite a bit, but it certainly doesn't rank in my top 30 movies of all time. However, a lot of other people loved it. Good for them. People are certainly entitled to their opinions.

[SolkaTruesilver]

2) rooting for the humans:

This sort of ties into the above. Maybe it's a cultural thing for me, but anyone rooting for the greedy assholes trying to wipe the natives out and steal their land/minerals is seriously f*cked up mentally. Especially after it's noted that this isn't the only deposit of the mineral on the planet, merely the closest/most convenient. I wonder if the same people who find it acceptable to kill people and take things they want on a national/global level would be A-okay with me clobbering them with a pipe wrench and taking their car and money. After all, I need/want those things, and they have those things. Using the same logic, I'd be justified.

I have to agree halfway about this. What I really hated was the stupid depiction of the "greedy corporate executive". It was so blatantly bidimensional, it wasn't funny anymore.

"Hey, look here, we have camera showing that you smashed company's equipment while in your Avatar"

Would it have hurt the protagonist to say that:

"Just bring back the camera 2 minutes before, you can see me trying to tell you to stop, because I had as a mission to prevent any further conflict. But you ignored my warning, and I had to do to accomplish my mission"

Speaking of the Protagonist, he's probably the most stupid, half-brained and incompetent protagonist I've ever seen. Seriously, he's been told time and again that PANDORA IS DANGEROUS. What does he do? He starts to touch every. freaking. thing. he encounters.

He is sent on a diplomatic mission to bond with the Na'vi and try to make them understand the humans' viewpoint, so there could be an agreement. Has there been a SINGLE thing tried? No. He just preferred to go and have sex with his blue alien babe.

What a dick. He single-handely might have caused the whole movie's conflict.

3) military tech

Is it realistic for the humans to use gunpowder based weapons this far in the future? Why not? As we've discussed before, there's no need to reinvent the wheel, especially when in the context of a profit-based mission. This could also explain the apparent weakness of the cockpit glass on the vehicles; most civilian vehicles nowadays don't use bullet-resistant glass, and neither do some military vehicles, for cost and other reasons. Also note the word "resistant".

I really liked the military equipment depicted in the movie. I agree with you: ballistic weaponry is fine, as it's efficient use of kinetic energy as weapon. Why try to go for the flashy lasers that would have more probability to jam in the jungle when you can go for the 1000-year old classic weapon that has been refined over the years?

What I really liked was the depiction of Power Armor. I think these are starting to get integrated into pop culture, as we might see the first isntance of military power armor within the next 40 years, if the tech development rate keeps the current trend (already seen some nice footage of a power armor developped for the US army)

Off course, not giving your power armor any, I don't know, ARMOR was stupid. But it wasn't the biggest plot hole of the movie, not by a long shot.

[Lighthawk]

While I certainly get a lot of the criticism aimed at Avatar, some points of contention seem either explainable, or just strange to argue about, IMO.

Explainable

1) the derivative plot:

While the plot certainly borrowed heavily from other sources, it didn't strike me as being as derivative as it's made out to be. "Guy falls for native woman and turns against his own people" has been done a number of times, sure. Dances With Wolves was a derivative work, and still made for a great movie.

Agreed, though it would have been easier to overlook if the Na'vi hadn't been so blatantly native American.

2) Navi victory:

Was achieved by use of surprise, terrain, and determination.

Plus having someone on their side who could tell them how to make the most of what they had. It also should be noted that the Na'vi LOST both the air and ground battle...it was the planet's zerg rush that tipped the scales.

Not exactly impossible. As others have pointed out, this victory is only a temporary one, as the humans may send a military expedition at the next available opportunity (at least a decade). However, the cost of mounting such an attack may not be reasonable; it's mentioned that the conflict was over the unobtanium under Home Tree, and that the nearest comparable deposit was "200 klicks" away. The company may just decide to go after easier sources rather than commit a sufficient force to eliminate the Navi.

Agreed. It might have been the cheaper option at the start to try to kick the Na'vi off their land than to uproot the entire mining operation. Now though, cheaper could be starting a new mining base rather than dragging who knows how many tons of expensive war tech and all the personal to use it for what would be a very short battle.

Also, the PR backlash at home might be enough to eliminate this option.

Honestly, I'm not sure how much backlash there could be. It's not like there are freelance reporters running around Pandora. The only news that's going to reach Earth from there is what the company distributes.

3) one-dimensional characters:

Mostly, I agree with this argument. The characters are exaggerated stereotypes in order to make the message blindingly obvious for the average moviegoer. For a seasoned sci-fi fan, it was unnecessary, but in order to reach as many people as possible with the message, and make as much money as possible, it was probably necessary. Anything that gets the average Joe Mortgage to give a sh*t about the environment, even for a few hours, is a good thing in my book.

I think the shallowness of the characters is somewhat over-exaggerated, and I still liked several of them even if they weren't the deepest, most developed individuals ever to appear on screen.

Strange

1) the environmental message:

What the hell is wrong with having an obvious environmental message in a mainstream film? As I said above, the average citizen needs all the prodding about it they can get. I still see people tossing their trash out the window of their cars all the time, and going for the easier/cheaper option when by now they should be well aware of the damage they're causing to the ecosystem. If people really just can't be bothered to care, they should do the rest of us a favor and jump into a trash quarry. Less people = more resources for the people who do give a sh*t.

This one hits me as weird to bitch about too, but more because I really didn't get such a message from the film. There is some environmental stuff in there, but the movie deals with an aboriginal people, so of course the environment matters a lot to them, they depend on it far more and are much more connected to it than we modern humans do, doubly so for the Na'vi seeing how they can literally connect to their environment. For me this movie wasn't about the environment, it was about the ability of the strong to just take what they want from the weak, and how that kind of injustice should be opposed.

2) rooting for the humans:

This sort of ties into the above. Maybe it's a cultural thing for me, but anyone rooting for the greedy assholes trying to wipe the natives out and steal their land/minerals is seriously f*cked up mentally. Especially after it's noted that this isn't the only deposit of the mineral on the planet, merely the closest/most convenient. I wonder if the same people who find it acceptable to kill people and take things they want on a national/global level would be A-okay with me clobbering them with a pipe wrench and taking their car and money. After all, I need/want those things, and they have those things. Using the same logic, I'd be justified.

It's human mentality, we want to root for our own. While "fucked up mentally" is a bit much, I do agree that wanting the mercs to win and wipe out the Na'vi for financial gain is taking the "go earth" mentality too much on reflex.

3) military tech

Is it realistic for the humans to use gunpowder based weapons this far in the future? Why not? As we've discussed before, there's no need to reinvent the wheel, especially when in the context of a profit-based mission. This could also explain the apparent weakness of the cockpit glass on the vehicles; most civilian vehicles nowadays don't use bullet-resistant glass, and neither do some military vehicles, for cost and other reasons. Also note the word "resistant".

It's honestly not THAT far in the future, slug throwers are fine by me. Hell, nothing says that energy weapons are inherently superior anyway. Plus if you read the background stuff, you'll note that the mercs are using older tech because it's much easier and cheaper to build on Pandora than the newest cutting edge stuff.

Other

1) four-limbed Navi in a six-limbed ecosystem

As Tyyr pointed out, this is obviously because Neyteri needed to be doable, and most of us aren't Chakat-lovers. It's a movie, and the plot dictated that Jake's love interest be attractive. Also, it makes the Navi easier to relate to for the audience.

Agreed, though they could have softened it by including a mix of 4 and 6 limbed animals.

2) not the best thing since sliced bread

Mikey's point about this movie being seriously overhyped is another one I agree with. I liked it quite a bit, but it certainly doesn't rank in my top 30 movies of all time. However, a lot of other people loved it. Good for them. People are certainly entitled to their opinions.

Agreed.

Speaking of the Protagonist, he's probably the most stupid, half-brained and incompetent protagonist I've ever seen. Seriously, he's been told time and again that PANDORA IS DANGEROUS. What does he do? He starts to touch every. freaking. thing. he encounters.

He is sent on a diplomatic mission to bond with the Na'vi and try to make them understand the humans' viewpoint, so there could be an agreement. Has there been a SINGLE thing tried? No. He just preferred to go and have sex with his blue alien babe.

What a dick. He single-handely might have caused the whole movie's conflict.

Not caused it, but he sure didn't help it. He pretty much failed everyone, the company and Na'vi equally.

What I really liked was the depiction of Power Armor. I think these are starting to get integrated into pop culture, as we might see the first isntance of military power armor within the next 40 years, if the tech development rate keeps the current trend (already seen some nice footage of a power armor developped for the US army)

Off course, not giving your power armor any, I don't know, ARMOR was stupid. But it wasn't the biggest plot hole of the movie, not by a long shot.

The thing to keep in mind with the PA is that it wasn't primarily a combat mech.

[SolkaTruesilver]

What I really liked was the depiction of Power Armor. I think these are starting to get integrated into pop culture, as we might see the first isntance of military power armor within the next 40 years, if the tech development rate keeps the current trend (already seen some nice footage of a power armor developped for the US army)

Off course, not giving your power armor any, I don't know, ARMOR was stupid. But it wasn't the biggest plot hole of the movie, not by a long shot.

The thing to keep in mind with the PA is that it wasn't primarily a combat mech.

That is news to me. I guess I haven't been keeping up on Avatar Fluff (can you blame me? ). So, what was it, primarily?

And if the PA weren't primarily a combat mech, why were there guns made specifically for them?

[Tyyr]

It was a work vehicle, not unlike the load lifter in Aliens (Cameron isn't afraid to reuse ideas he's had before). The thing was adaptable though and given Pandora's megafauna giving it a way to defend itself or to use in support of military operations is just a smart thing to do.

[SolkaTruesilver]

It was a work vehicle, not unlike the load lifter in Aliens (Cameron isn't afraid to reuse ideas he's had before). The thing was adaptable though and given Pandora's megafauna giving it a way to defend itself or to use in support of military operations is just a smart thing to do.

Agreed. Personnally, I always felt that power armor had more potential for civilian heavy lifting than actual combat operation. I can't wait to see these babies in the construction industry! I once saw a group of worker cutting up a road and trying to load the concrete blocks (each about 2 mx2mx1m) into a truck, and having trouble positioning them properly. They had to muddle through with a crane and wooden boards in what I though was pretty dangerous operation.

With a PA, they could just have pushed the block in the right position. There is simply so much potential, I giggle at the idea.

Humm.. about a P.A. thread in the technology subforum? I don't know if you have seen the video of the guy in a power armor that can easily lift 300 pounds without breaking a sweat

[Mikey]

I never said I had a problem with the message, nor did I ever say I expected anything but a derivative, unimaginative plot. What I said - and still hold - is that the whole thing could have be done, including the same message, in a far less brain-dead way. The Na'vi could have been something other than blue-skinned Blackfoot. The materiel (not "material") could have been more than obvious redresses from Aliens. The simple bits about making the flora and fauna of Pandora more workable could have been done very easily... hell, I noticed the issues immediately a and I may be fairly intelligent but I'm no zoologist.

Like I mentioned in the other thread: when I first heard the word "unobtainium," I was sure it was just a snarky, sarcastic fan terminology for the object of the resource-aggression. Turns out that no, they were really so incredibly lazy and disrespectful of the viewing public as to actually call it "unobtainium." That is a perfect example, writ small, of the problem I had with this film.

[Tsukiyumi]

When I first heard "unobtanium", I thought it was just unoriginal writing. Turns out, it's a real term.

Would've been better if they'd just named it after some fictional scientist (Changsium, or some such), and moved on, though.

Honestly, you'd think I'd be a bit miffed about the "native Americans in space" thing, but it didn't bother me as much as I expected it to. I imagine if they'd made them more like aborigines, rights groups would've blasted the film from the get-go. Native Americans are just a safer route for depicting fictional "savages".

[Mikey]

It's a real term for a thought experiment - it wouldn't be used to name an actual mineral.

[SolkaTruesilver]

It's a real term for a thought experiment - it wouldn't be used to name an actual mineral.

Except if the mineral's real name is scientific gibberish, and "unobtanium" has became the corporate's buzzword/vulgar name for their best source of income?

I mean, how often do you call chemicals/elements/something else by its proper name rather than a commonly used name?

[Lighthawk]

It's a real term for a thought experiment - it wouldn't be used to name an actual mineral.

Except if the mineral's real name is scientific gibberish, and "unobtanium" has became the corporate's buzzword/vulgar name for their best source of income?

I mean, how often do you call chemicals/elements/something else by its proper name rather than a commonly used name?

A good point. Though in that case they could have made it less absurd if the stuff's introduction had gone something along the lines of

"This is what we're here for, Unobtanium, *insert fancy scientific name here*, worth 20 million a kilo..."

[stitch626]

Why? Do you bother to say "Pass the salt - sodium chloride."

He may not even have known the scientific name.

[Lighthawk]

Why?

To make things a little less silly than suggesting that the stuff's proper name is Unobtanium.

Do you bother to say "Pass the salt - sodium chloride."

No, but A) salt isn't a silly nickname for the stuff and B) asking someone to pass salt in real life has a whole different context than a movie character launching into a lecture for the purpose of explaining something important to the audience.

[stitch626]

All that needs to be conveyed is that they can't get it on Earth, and its expensive. A scientific goblygook name wouldn't have much of an effect on that.

[Lighthawk]

I disagree. While "not available on earth" and "really valuable" are important facts for the audience to understand the company's motives, letting it be called something that silly sounding in a serious movie smacks of bad writing. Adding in a an extra second of dialog that tells us that Unobtanium is merely common jargon for the stuff allows the term Unobtanium to be used for the rest of the movie without sounding so cornball. A very small tweak to remove something that a great many people complained about.