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I'm not too sure SW can really be used to gauge anything in this instance. Other sci-fi don't operate by the same rules as Trek. That includes industrial capacity. As was mentioned at the start of this thread Legend of The Galactic Heroes has fleets of hundreds of thousands being common, despite controlling just a portion of our galaxy. SW and 40K have notably less ships, despite each controlling a vastly greater region. Given how tech and construction methods are different in all sci-fi realms, any comparison seems rather pointless. The only real thing you could derive from that, I suppose, would be the "standard" fleet size per territory size from a literary point of view. But an in-universe analysis just seems off to me.

Welcome to the site, by the way.

We do have some indicators re Star Trek, though.

For example we know from 'Tacking Into the Wind' that the Klingons had at least 1,500 ships available - it could be a lot more, the dialogue isn't 100% clear, but it's at least 1,500 - whilst the combined Dominion fleet - Dominion proper, Cardassian and Breen - numbered 30,000 ships.

And since the Cardassians changing sides was a balance-tipping moment in the war, the Federation/Klingon/Romulan fleet realistically must have numbered somewhere between ten and twenty thousand.

And incidentally, the couple of hundred planets figure is, apparently, just the main ones. Including colonies, outposts and such there are thousands of worlds.

We also got the 900 Billion figure from Bashier as well. So at the very least we can assume a minimum of 1 trillion for a combined Klingon/Federation population.

I think DITL's 8,000 figure is reasonable perhaps a bit low. We could assume that the Klingons and the Federation both had 16,000 ships at the beginning of the war, with the Romulans adding another 4,000 to 6,000 ships.

The 1,500 ship figure could be in reference to what was available for an offensive and those not deployed in defensive positions. I am not sure but I'll have to watch it again.

There is plenty of wiggle room in the 1,500. It's said in the context of the Breen energy damper; Martok says a Klingon ship proved invulnerable because of some minor deflector modification, and then said he'd ordered the entire fleet to be so modified before adding "By tomorrow, we'll have fifteen hundred Klingon vessels ready for deployment."

If anything it's actually quite likely that the 1,500 was only a part of the Klingon force.

I think it would be a safe bet that they couldn't upgrade the engines of the entire Klingon Fleet within a day. That 1,500 was most likely reffering to ships currently in drydock, just being flown out of assembly facilities, being repaired, stopped at a Starbase getting supplies, etc.

Agreed.

Well that makes sense.

Also if that is true, and IF the modification needs drydock work, then the Klingons have a very impressive infrastructure. Which in turn means so does the Federation.

But if they can do it underway, then it does give a good indication of the size of the Klingons. Assuming that the message on how to modify their ships were transmitted within a day or two throughout the fleet, ships that were undamaged at the time to be mobilized with the modification and those ships that were nearing completion of their reift/repair/construction. It would show that the current strength of the Klingon fleet could be around perhaps 3,000 to 5,000 ships at that time. But I am just throwing numbers.

Keep in mind that the AQ Alliance races all shared drydocks (evidence from the fact the Romulan's had a bitch about not getting any priority on drydock space in DS9 compared to a group of Klingon ships). Whether the Klingon's share drydock spaces with the Feds, let alone the Rommies, is an unknown; even more so with the Rommies sharing with the Feds/Klingons. However, happy go lucky SF might well share its docks with Klingons and Romulans, meaning that rather impressive turn out is probably not an indicator of what the Klingons themselves are capable of.

Reliant121 wrote:However, happy go lucky SF might well share its docks with Klingons and Romulans, meaning that rather impressive turn out is probably not an indicator of what the Klingons themselves are capable of.

And Section 31 taking notes the whole time, to be ready for the next war.

SF itself would be entirely unawares, since Section 31 is an autonomous and unofficial entity AFAIK.

Reliant121 wrote:SF itself would be entirely unawares, since Section 31 is an autonomous and unofficial entity AFAIK.

That doesn't mean that they're invisible - Ross certainly knew about them, and the same probably goes for most of the Admiralty. Unavowed and autonomous does not mean unknown.

Indeed.

So much for high and mighty principles.

Reliant121 wrote:Indeed.

So much for high and mighty principles.

In war, principles more often then not give way to survival.

I agree. War is war. Only when you are winning can you go on the high and mighty road.

To hell with that, most of the time you just pretend you took the high road after the war. If you were the winner then its pretty easy to say since no one can say otherwise.