How big SHOULD the Federation Fleet be?

[stitch626]

Considering the Defiants warp core is more powerful than most other starships, and is one of the smallest cores in the fleet, I don't see why any number of other ships can't get a new, more powerful core.

All that would need to be done is to have the core casing made so it actually fits into the ship.

[Mikey]

Considering the Defiants warp core is more powerful than most other starships, and is one of the smallest cores in the fleet, I don't see why any number of other ships can't get a new, more powerful core.

All that would need to be done is to have the core casing made so it actually fits into the ship.

Sounds good. Can I take a gas furnace and just pop it into a house ducted for a wood stove? Can I take a CPU from a modern high-end PC and just drop it into a Commodore Amiga? I.e., what makes you think that all the ancillary systems - antimatter feeds, power output relays and conduits, control systems, etc., etc., are built to handle the new core or are even in the same relative physical locations?

[Atekimogus]

There's two major problems with your theory. A, if they were that able to support increased power then they would have put in a more powerful source of power to which they didn't. B, your whole stance is an opinion that contradicts canon.

There for your stance, while a valid idea is still not applicable to the GCS or to Phasers.

You probably missed it (I do tend to write rather lengthy posts, I apologize) but my statement was based on the idea, that the limiting factor under this premise would be indeed the ability to produce power. So your statement A, that if some systems, like shields or phasers etc. were able to operate at a higher efficiency with more power then they would have built the power supply to specifications is not a factor. The don't have a more powerful source of power at the moment, under this premise.

That is kinda the whole idea behind this concept, that power, as a resource is limited, yet the systems they operate have enough headroom to factor in future upgrades. (FYI Starfleet Command operates fully under this assumption, that you can use the whole shippower for motion, powering weapons, reenforcing shields etc.. yet, you cannot do all things at once at peak efficiency, power is limited. That also FITS with canon when they differt power from lets say shields to phasers. Not once hear we a complaint: "hey we can't differt power from shields to phasers, they are already operating with 100%. More power and they fry!")

It would also explain nicely why you have a bunch of rather old ships with lifespans of 80+ alongside more modern ships with seemingly similar functions, capabilities etc. The former are nearing the end of their spans, with enough power supply that all their systems could be operated with top efficiency, whereas newer designs operate at the same basic efficiency yet still have headroom for future growth.

So to point B)....where do I contradict canon? I agree it is just speculation but afaik it fits rather nicely.

Considering the Defiants warp core is more powerful than most other starships, and is one of the smallest cores in the fleet, I don't see why any number of other ships can't get a new, more powerful core.

It has? To be honest I had the impression that while obviously a size or two too powerful for a ship that size it seems not that great either, barley able to reach speeds beyond warp 9.0 and then only with utilizing phaser energy reserves. So yeah, impressive for its size but I wouldn't put it on par with Intrepids, Akiras and maybe not even Excelsiors more like 2 bird of preys maybe (which are also quite impressive for their size). Of course not canon but merly how it appeared to me while watching DS9.

[Atekimogus]

Sounds good. Can I take a gas furnace and just pop it into a house ducted for a wood stove? Can I take a CPU from a modern high-end PC and just drop it into a Commodore Amiga? I.e., what makes you think that all the ancillary systems - antimatter feeds, power output relays and conduits, control systems, etc., etc., are built to handle the new core or are even in the same relative physical locations?

Of course you can not, however the Amiga was not built with they view that it has to last for the next decade and therefore his periphery was accordingly not designed to handle what they anticipated would be the next best cpu in 5-10 years. In 5-10 years they wanted to have sold you the next 2-3 generations of home-computers already so longevity was never ever an issue, maybe even consciencly avoided.

Apples and Oranges. One system designed and built not to last, the other (starships) to last for decades. (Incedentelly I believe my motherboard in my home-PC was home to 3 graphic cards, 2 cpus and various ram updates. (Some refer to it as my own ship of perseus paradoxon since by now, depending on your view it is either brand new or 7 years old) And altough I am now nearing the end of its upgradability I am still able to play most modern games quite well, far from feeling the need to replace it. Now imagine what would be possible if they would design those things to last. Its supposed to be the future, they are supposed to be able to do that)

[stitch626]

It has?

Yes. Stated in one of the first eps with the ship.
And IIRC, it was the warp engines themselves which were slightly slow, not a lack of power form the core.

Sounds good. Can I take a gas furnace and just pop it into a house ducted for a wood stove? Can I take a CPU from a modern high-end PC and just drop it into a Commodore Amiga? I.e., what makes you think that all the ancillary systems - antimatter feeds, power output relays and conduits, control systems, etc., etc., are built to handle the new core or are even in the same relative physical locations?

I did say the new core would have to be made with the physical design of the ship in mind, ie all the conduits and stuff would have to line up. But that has to do with core construction, not the ship.

Also, your analogies are bad.
A better analogy would be can you take a modern gas furnace and easily replace one from 20 years ago. And the answer is yes (well, the moving of the furnaces isn't so easy, but we don't have antigravs).

[Mikey]

OK, the analogies weren't great, but you missed the more important second part of that post. To use your (better) anaology:

can you take a modern gas furnace and easily replace one from 20 years ago. And the answer is yes (well, the moving of the furnaces isn't so easy, but we don't have antigravs).

Er... no, you can't. The control board is completely different in operation, a modern one having switches that the older one doesn't and not having ones that the older one does. Further, the connections are in different places, use connectors of different sizes, and have valving of a different nature. So...

Yes, a given ship could easily have a more powerful core than the original built specifically for it and installed. No, I will never believe that the advent of a more powerful core means that one could be taken and plugged into any given ship.

[stitch626]

It couldn't be plugged into any given ship. it would have to be made for that ship. Thats like expecting the core form a GCS to go into a Miranda.

The core's connectors would be designed for the ship it is going into. No one is suggesting that they would make a new core for one ship and it would work in all the others.

[Graham Kennedy]

We constantly hear that they are transferring power from this to that system, with hardly a concern about whether they'll put so much into a system that it will burn out or blow up. Indeed the ONLY thing I recall them ever saying will burn out from too much power going through it is the warp drive itself.

The implication is that any given system on the ship can easily handle considerably more than it's normal load and all the plumbing and associated systems are designed with that in mind. So a more powerful warp core would be a very sensible upgrade, I'd think.

[Sonic Glitch]

We constantly hear that they are transferring power from this to that system, with hardly a concern about whether they'll put so much into a system that it will burn out or blow up. Indeed the ONLY thing I recall them ever saying will burn out from too much power going through it is the warp drive itself.

The implication is that any given system on the ship can easily handle considerably more than it's normal load and all the plumbing and associated systems are designed with that in mind. So a more powerful warp core would be a very sensible upgrade, I'd think.

It always seemed to me that the pieces of technology had their normal operating level (i.e. 100% in standard conditions) but were actually capable of handling much more than usually given

[Graham Kennedy]

Well that's what I just said.... they have a "normal level" X, but they are perfectly capable of handling say 2X if necessary.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Well that's what I just said.... they have a "normal level" X, but they are perfectly capable of handling say 2X if necessary.

Isn't that what Scotty pretty much said in 'Relics'? Basically always leave yourself a bit of leeway in the specs.

[Coalition]

The fun part is when you get into everything in the ship being built to that 2x capacity/production/consumption.

The ship winds up balanced anyway. I.e. you decide to build the phasers to handle 2x the planned power to allow for future enhancements. Another engineer designs the plasma conduits for 2x the power to allow for future enhancements. A third team gets the reactor to produce 2x the regular power to provide the energy needed for future enhancements (and produces lower levels of power until the higher amount is needed). Other teams design with the 2x capacity as well.

Net result, everything on the ship now operating at its max capacity. Refits provide a new system that operates at (guesstimate) 3x original, so you still get power demands, excesses, etc.

[Atekimogus]

It has?

Yes. Stated in one of the first eps with the ship.
And IIRC, it was the warp engines themselves which were slightly slow, not a lack of power form the core.

Now I might be very wrong here, but as far as I can remember Sisko only said that she has a far to powerful warp core "for her size" and that she nearly broke herself apart because of that in trial runs. I don't remember that he ever drew a comparison to any other ships.

We constantly hear that they are transferring power from this to that system, with hardly a concern about whether they'll put so much into a system that it will burn out or blow up. Indeed the ONLY thing I recall them ever saying will burn out from too much power going through it is the warp drive itself.

The implication is that any given system on the ship can easily handle considerably more than it's normal load and all the plumbing and associated systems are designed with that in mind. So a more powerful warp core would be a very sensible upgrade, I'd think.

Hear Hear

[Mikey]

It couldn't be plugged into any given ship. it would have to be made for that ship. Thats like expecting the core form a GCS to go into a Miranda.

The core's connectors would be designed for the ship it is going into. No one is suggesting that they would make a new core for one ship and it would work in all the others.

Bingo! Now you're getting the point I was trying to make. A warp core upgrade to any given ship is a product of R&D geared toward that specific ship class, and not just a factor of tehcnology advancing to the point that warp cores in general are more powerful.

BTW, completely agreed with GK that the maxima for ships' systems seem to usually be larger than the available power. It does seem that in this, at least, Starfleet has got the design philosophy right, and that ship systems seem designed to handle more power than the ship actually generates.

Begs the question, though, why any stray disruptor blast seems to overload x number of conduits and relays...

[Deepcrush]

Begs the question, though, why any stray disruptor blast seems to overload x number of conduits and relays...

Because the systems are most likely only able to handle the power for a very short period. In BoBW when the Ent-D wanted to hit the Borg Cube with their full output they had to use the Deflector. The systems have shown they can be boosted in power but as thats not the norm and only used in emergencies. It should be pretty clear that increasing the power even more would require refitting.

A real world example would be running a car in the red. Sure the car can do it for a short while but you cause greater and greater damage to the engine the longer and harder you push it.

What everyone here has forgotten is the difference between levels of operation.