How big SHOULD the Federation Fleet be?

[Mikey]

Is that some sort of anti-theft device for hearses?

[Picard]

I would give Starfleet some 7 000 to 17 000 capital ships (when I analyzed DS9 it came out as 6820 and 17 050 ships) as size in DS9. But as for ideal size... I don't know, but we could end up from 12 000 to 35 000 capital ships.

[Deepcrush]

Could you explain your reasoning for us?

[Picard]

7 000 to 17 000 are figures I got by analyzing Dominion War. Premise was that there are 10 fleets, each having 12 Galaxy class ship. Then I just analyzed frequency of ships appearing on screen. As for ideal numbers, we know from TNG that Starfleet is chronically short of ships. However, fleet should not be too large, and I think there are more ships than it seems beacouse many are on deep space missions. So it is obvious that Starfleet needs to be much larger, but not more than 2 times current size.

[Deepcrush]

Sounds good.

[Mikey]

each having 12 Galaxy class ship.

Where's that from?

[Deepcrush]

SoA I'm thinking.

[Captain Seafort]

The problem with that is that I can only recall 6 GCS. Besides which that fleet, over 600 strong, was comprised merely of elements of two other fleets, while the entire Second Fleet was only a bit over 100 strong. The fleets would, naturally, be of a strength and composition appropriate to their responsibilities, and trying to calculate total Fed fleet strength based on the strength and composition of the various fleets is therefore an iffy business at best.

[Graham Kennedy]

Well we also need to bear in mind that we have no idea whatsoever how many fleets there are. The tenth fleet is the highest number we ever heard reference to, but for all we know there were twelve, or fifteen, or fifty.

[Picard]

I'm pretty sure there were at least 10 different GCS in "Operation Return". We hear about 3 "Galaxy wings" and 3 starships engage single Galor-class destroyer, suggesting that single "wing" should be at least 3 ships, maybe 4. Highest fleet number we hear about is 10th fleet. 1st, 4th and 8th fleet are only fleets we don't hear about. You also must consider that fleets, both real and Trek ones, are rarely at full strength.

[Captain Seafort]

We hear about 3 "Galaxy wings" and 3 starships engage single Galor-class destroyer, suggesting that single "wing" should be at least 3 ships, maybe 4.

We hear of two GCS Wings, 9-1 and 9-2. We have no evidence whatsoever of their composition - they might be comprised entirely of GCS, or they might be built around a single GCS plus escorts, much as a CVBG is based around a single or, very occasionally, two carriers. We see at most five GCS in a single scene (which is the only way we can rule out duplicated sightings).

You also must consider that fleets, both real and Trek ones, are rarely at full strength.

How does this in any way contradict my point regarding the variable sizes of fleets?

[Picard]

We hear of two GCS Wings, 9-1 and 9-2. We have no evidence whatsoever of their composition - they might be comprised entirely of GCS, or they might be built around a single GCS plus escorts, much as a CVBG is based around a single or, very occasionally, two carriers. We see at most five GCS in a single scene (which is the only way we can rule out duplicated sightings).

I think it was 9-1 and 9-3. But in scene where GCS engage Galors, we see 3 Galaxy-class ships converging on single Galor, no support ships. Also, fact that these were converging on single Galor probably means these Galaxies were part of same wing.

How does this in any way contradict my point regarding the variable sizes of fleets?

It does not, nor it is intended to. It actually might even support it. What I meant is that number of ships is not avaliable at any given time.

[Captain Seafort]

I think it was 9-1 and 9-3. But in scene where GCS engage Galors, we see 3 Galaxy-class ships converging on single Galor, no support ships. Also, fact that these were converging on single Galor probably means these Galaxies were part of same wing.

Conceded regarding the designations. Regarding the total number of ships, which scene are you referring to? The only such incident I recall was two GCS engaging a single Galor - which would match Sisko's order for two wings to cover the flank. The episode's up on YT, so a link to the part and a time would be much appreciated.

It does not, nor it is intended to. It actually might even support it. What I meant is that number of ships is not avaliable at any given time.

Therefore, given that we don't know the average number of ships in a fleet, the total number of fleets, or indeed the number of ships not assigned to fleets, how can you use those figures to determine the total size of the Fed fleet?

[Picard]

3 Galaxy-class ships converging on single Galor

Actually, it was 2 ships.

The only such incident I recall was two GCS engaging a single Galor - which would match Sisko's order for two wings to cover the flank. The episode's up on YT, so a link to the part and a time would be much appreciated.

There were 2 Galor class destroyers, and Galaxy wings 9-1 and 9-3 were ordered to engage both destroyers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoIFUJxJ ... re=related
0:34 - 0:48
and these destroyers were on opposite sides of "opening", which means one wing is probably 2 GCS.

Therefore, given that we don't know the average number of ships in a fleet, the total number of fleets, or indeed the number of ships not assigned to fleets, how can you use those figures to determine the total size of the Fed fleet?

1) We can assume total number of fleets from what we do know
2) No more than 2/3rds of total number of ships will be out of fleet at maximum
3) rest is guessing, educated as it can be

[Atekimogus]

3 Galaxy-class ships converging on single Galor

Actually, it was 2 ships.

Actually, if you go to exactly 1:04 of your video you see 4 ships, which may represent both or only one gcs wing. I don't know, given the visual evidence I would not venture to guess the numbers a GCS wing is supposed to consist of nor if it includes any support ships. (There are quite a few excelsiors in the mix which may or may not be seconded to the heavy hitters.

Its hard to glimpse any tactical significance from scenes primarily made to just look damn good imho.