Debate: "The Catholic Church Is A Force For Good"

[Sionnach Glic]

Figured some people here might be interested in taking a look at this debate shown on the BBC. The motion they're arguing for/against is whether or not the Catholic Church is a good force on the world.

For: Nigerian Arch-Bishop and Anne Widdercombe, Conservative MP
Against: Author Christopher Hitchens and TV presenter Stephen Fry.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5

[Deepcrush]

Crap, is there a brief on this?

[Sionnach Glic]

Ask and you shall recieve (PDF)

I think the numbers at the end are quite telling. Before the debate started, the audience was split like this:

For: 678
Against: 1102
Undecided: 346

After the debate, the numbers were:

For: 268 (-410)
Against: 1876 (+774)
Undecided: 34

[Deepcrush]

If ever you lost a battle...

[stitch626]

This is a debate?

Looks like it might be an interesting read, when I get the time.

EDIT: Hmm, for some reason the PDF isn't loading, all I get is a blank screen.

[sunnyside]

Ugh.

Now, first off, I'm a protestant, so I don't have much of a problem with people complaining about the Catholic church. While they've had many corrective measures, they fell into corruption hundreds of years ago, and have a lot of residual issues.

That said, was the deck stacked against the Catholics here? I've only been able to read the PDF. But they were not forming a well thought out argument in their favor. So I wonder if this was a case of two people, not really prepped for this thing but more than willing to do whatever to get on TV, up agaisnt an author who has made it their job for a few years to be prepared for this debate, and a smooth talker to back him up.

First and formost, decide if you're going to take the "We're saving lives from the pit of hell" angle, or if you're going to go for a "even if we're totally wrong, we're still a force of good" angle, and then stick with it. They're kinda trying to straddle the two, which generally just amounted to muddying the waters with "pro" positions that are completely irrelevant to a non Catholic. Also, if they cared about the final poll numbers at all, their little shots at other churches isn't going to help at all.

My take on something like this would be that you need to:

#1 Start off with something like "if we're right, than there is no question of if we are a source of good in the world. However, even if there were no God, we would still be a positive force on the world." And after that drop all the docternal stuff entirely.

#2 Try and get the other Christian churches on your side as much as possible (dropping the docternal stuff after #1 should help with that). Wrap them in with comments about cherities and whatnot in which other Churches share the work, don't, in this debate, distance them by seeming criticisms of their flexibility.

#3 Decide if you're going to make this discussion "IS" the church a force of good or "WAS" the church a force of good. They've got some skeletons in their closet. Also many of the "good" things they may have historically done are either harder to explain or no longer so good to modern eyes. In most peoples view of history, it would seem that the only good people are the slaves and the slaughtered. Everyone else who did the things that were needed to not fall into those two catagories is a bastard.

Therefore if you want to discuss the past, make sure it's really strong. Otherwise avoid it completely and focus on the present.

#4 Try to find some real information regarding the good works done, or the societal advantages of life changes resulting from conversions to the faith, or differences in crime incidences. In short you need to back up what you're saying. And if all those numbers come out bad, well, maybe get to work on that and put off such a debate until they are good.

[Sionnach Glic]

Considering that one speaker was a Nigerian Arch-Bishop and the other was a British Member Of Parliament, both of them would already have had extensive experience in public speaking. Also, they would have been informed they were appearing on the show well in advance.

Take a look at the videos. It's best to see the debate first-hand.

[Mikey]

I honestly can't see the point of a debate like this... especially in a Protestant country. Honestly, Catholics are gonna say "yes," antiestablishmentarians are gonna say "no," no matter what goes on in the debate. The problem with a discussion like this is that you can't - for argument's purposes - separate the Chruch from the actions of individuals operating under the Church's auspices.

[Atekimogus]

Well, they should have the same discussion for ALL religions and watch the shocking end result. Is there a reason catholics got singled out or are the other ones following at a later date, or rather would it be politically incorrect to ask the same question about certain folks having problems with humouristic cartoons?

[sunnyside]

would it be politically incorrect to ask the same question about certain folks having problems with humouristic cartoons?

If by "politically incorrect" you mean "they will fucking shoot you and after that decapitate and stab you some more like with the Dutch dude," than yes.

[Mikey]

I imagine that Catholics were singled out because it's a Protestant nation with a fair Muslim minority. Why can't we all just fess up and admit, like Tom Lehrer sang, "The Catholics hate the Protestants/the Protestants hate the Catholics/the Muslims hate the Hindus/and everybody hates the Jews."

[IanKennedy]

I imagine that Catholics were singled out because it's a Protestant nation with a fair Muslim minority. Why can't we all just fess up and admit, like Tom Lehrer sang, "The Catholics hate the Protestants/the Protestants hate the Catholics/the Muslims hate the Hindus/and everybody hates the Jews."

Well in the UK the CofE doesn't really hate the Catholics. It's come a long way since they used to burn them in the streets. I've even seen services where both a Catholic bishop and a CofE bishop both take part. Religion just isn't that much of an issue in the UK. I don't know many, if any, people that would even ask what church you belong to (type that is let alone specific church building). It's very common for people not to go to a church at all. Even those that go don't seem to make much of it.

[Captain Seafort]

Well in the UK the CofE doesn't really hate the Catholics...Religion just isn't that much of an issue in the UK.

Depends which part of the UK - I can't see a Catholic being too welcome in the Shankill, peace process or no peace process.

[Atekimogus]

Depends which part of the UK - I can't see a Catholic being too welcome in the Shankill, peace process or no peace process.

Why is that?

[Sionnach Glic]

You've never heard of the Troubles?