Hows this for a split...

[stitch626]

Would it make sense that the divergence occurred from the Temporal Cold War? That was a major temporal incursion.
Specifically, the "Space Nazis" episodes.

[Captain Seafort]

Why is the original point of divergence even relevant? We don't have anywhere close to enough evidence about the differences to hypthesise, and I'd be astonished if Abrams has ever considered (or will ever consider) the question. This isn't your typical Trek time-travel story, in which how it came to be as it is was always a key plot point, it's just "this is different , and we're off - boldly going once again".

[stitch626]

Oh right, I keep forgetting that part... I guess I got so used to the way time travel worked in Trek before.

Of coarse, no one can say either one is right, as no one has traveled any direction except forward.

[Graham Kennedy]

I'm in the camp that there wasn't one. The universe we see at the beginning of the movie is the "normal" Trek timeline, IMO.

[Lazar]

The Kelvin might seem a bit out of place as a pre-TOS ship, but then so does ENT. I think the official position is simply that the POD was Nero's arrival.

[Graham Kennedy]

The differences between the Kelvin and TOS are pretty minor, IMO. Window on the bridge... really not an issue for me. One ship has a window, one doesn't. It's the kind of thing that could be just the designer's whim. Kelvin is rather large compared to a Connie, sure. But whilst I vaguely recall references to the TOS Enterprise being a big ship, I'm not aware of anything in TOS that said she was the biggest in service, let alone the biggest that there had ever been in Starfleet. Change of uniform? Starfleet is an organisation that changes its uniform patterns an average of something like once every three or four years! They could have changed the uniforms a half dozen times between ENT and the Kelvin, and a half dozen more between the Kelvin and TOS, and it would easily fit in with what we know of standard practice.

The most damning thing is the use of the arrowhead logo, and honestly I tend to think that's just something that is being retconned as "always that way". Yeah we saw different emblems in use in TOS, but the arrowhead has long become the "Starfleet symbol", and I could just as easily explain it away by saying that ten different symbols where used in TOS, with each one adopted by dozens of different ships. The episodes just so happened to feature no two the same, but just as easily could have, whilst with the Kelvin we happened to see another ship that used the Arrowhead. A somewhat inelegant explanation I know, but it fits the facts as well as any other and most importantly, it fits the idea that it was destroying the Kelvin that was the branching event, which is very clearly the intent of the creators of ST XI.

[Foxfyre]

The differences between the Kelvin and TOS are pretty minor, IMO. Window on the bridge... really not an issue for me. One ship has a window, one doesn't. It's the kind of thing that could be just the designer's whim. Kelvin is rather large compared to a Connie, sure. But whilst I vaguely recall references to the TOS Enterprise being a big ship, I'm not aware of anything in TOS that said she was the biggest in service, let alone the biggest that there had ever been in Starfleet. Change of uniform? Starfleet is an organisation that changes its uniform patterns an average of something like once every three or four years! They could have changed the uniforms a half dozen times between ENT and the Kelvin, and a half dozen more between the Kelvin and TOS, and it would easily fit in with what we know of standard practice.

The most damning thing is the use of the arrowhead logo, and honestly I tend to think that's just something that is being retconned as "always that way". Yeah we saw different emblems in use in TOS, but the arrowhead has long become the "Starfleet symbol", and I could just as easily explain it away by saying that ten different symbols where used in TOS, with each one adopted by dozens of different ships. The episodes just so happened to feature no two the same, but just as easily could have, whilst with the Kelvin we happened to see another ship that used the Arrowhead. A somewhat inelegant explanation I know, but it fits the facts as well as any other and most importantly, it fits the idea that it was destroying the Kelvin that was the branching event, which is very clearly the intent of the creators of ST XI.

With the arrowhead and other ship symbols its possible they are fleet insigina, IE Enterpriest is apart of the 1st fleet and all 1st fleet ships hav ethe arrowhead. Again a bit farfetched but really don't have a better idea.

[steamrunner]

Why is the original point of divergence even relevant? We don't have anywhere close to enough evidence about the differences to hypthesise, and I'd be astonished if Abrams has ever considered (or will ever consider) the question. This isn't your typical Trek time-travel story, in which how it came to be as it is was always a key plot point, it's just "this is different , and we're off - boldly going once again".

Agreed...

[Mikey]

Seconded. The PoD should be something within the ST XI story. The Trek' timeline and the nTrek timeline are too close - at least at the beginiing of the film - for ENT "Storm Front" to be the point of divergence.

[Captain Seafort]

The Trek' timeline and the nTrek timeline are too close

Close? The differences are vast. The E-nil was never stated to be the largest ship in the fleet, but the E-D certainly was, and the neoE is close to the size of a GCS. There is simply no way that the same industrial base that considered the GCS a great ship could have built a ship close to the same size a century earlier. Nero's appearance might have changed Starfleet's priorities, but it wouldn't have given their industrial base the massive boost that would have been needed to construct the neoE - that had to exist prior to the loss of the Kelvin.

Incidental does anyone know if the neoE has been modelled well enough to get a closer number than "fucking huge" for her volume?

[Mikey]

OK, there's a difference in the size of the ships they build. Hoo-friggin'-ray.

Starfleet exists in both timelines. Starfleet Academy exists, in much the same manifestation, in both timelines. The same shipbuilding principles exist in both timelines. The Kobayashi Maru exists in both timelines. Humanity is the primary species in both timelines. Vulcans in nTrek act, for the most part, as Vulcans do in Trek'; as do humans. Etc., etc. The differences are minimal compared to what we should reasonably expect if the point of divergence was as early as ENT: "Storm Front."

[Graham Kennedy]

With the arrowhead and other ship symbols its possible they are fleet insigina, IE Enterpriest is apart of the 1st fleet and all 1st fleet ships hav ethe arrowhead. Again a bit farfetched but really don't have a better idea.

That's a really good idea! If you went a step further, perhaps each fleet is led by a Constitution class. That's a good explanation of the idea of 12 Connies since 12 fleets is in the same ballpark we saw in DS9. And since we only ever saw Connies, we always saw a different symbol.

[steamrunner]

With the arrowhead and other ship symbols its possible they are fleet insigina, IE Enterpriest is apart of the 1st fleet and all 1st fleet ships hav ethe arrowhead. Again a bit farfetched but really don't have a better idea.

That's a really good idea! If you went a step further, perhaps each fleet is led by a Constitution class. That's a good explanation of the idea of 12 Connies since 12 fleets is in the same ballpark we saw in DS9. And since we only ever saw Connies, we always saw a different symbol.

That IS a really good idea! But if the 12 Connies are the flagships of individual fleets, shouldn't that make Kirk a Commodore? Robert Wesley was a Commodore, why not Kirk?

[Vic]

Well, no, flagships still have Captains to run them so that Commodores can run the squadron, flotilla, fleet, what have you with out having to run the ship as well. I can see the Captain down in auxillary control while Wesley is on the bridge running the squadron. There is no provision for a flying bridge where the Commodore would be in real life on Connies that we have seen so Aux Control would have to be it.

[steamrunner]

Well, no, flagships still have Captains to run them so that Commodores can run the squadron, flotilla, fleet, what have you with out having to run the ship as well. I can see the Captain down in auxillary control while Wesley is on the bridge running the squadron. There is no provision for a flying bridge where the Commodore would be in real life on Connies that we have seen so Aux Control would have to be it.

"Welcome aboard, Captain. You've seen Auxiliary Control, so...here is your broom closet...er...stateroom."