Vor'cha Versus Lakota

[Captain Seafort]

Even that wouldn't be a fair fight. The Lakota would just launch a volley of QTs and bye-bye Vor'cha.

Rot. You'd say the same if it were Lakota versus V'Ger. Given that the Lakota/Defiant fight was very close, and the Defiant's reaction to being confronted by a Vor'cha in WotW was not to simply brush it aside (indeed it was considered a serious problem), calling a Lakota/Vor'cha fight even would if anything be giving the Lakota the benefit of the doubt.

[Deepcrush]

Rot. You'd say the same if it were Lakota versus V'Ger. Given that the Lakota/Defiant fight was very close, and the Defiant's reaction to being confronted by a Vor'cha in WotW was not to simply brush it aside (indeed it was considered a serious problem), calling a Lakota/Vor'cha fight even would if anything be giving the Lakota the benefit of the doubt.

Wow, someone is one her period again... bleeding much are you?

Really, it has been a long time since you cried at me so its about due. Though I don't recall ever saying that Lakota was a curbstomp to V'Ger but ok...

On topic.
WotW. The Defiant engaged a trio of BoPs and a Vor'Cha without her shields up and still cruised back to DS9 and the Vor'cha broke off the attack after the Defiant raised her shields and left.

We also see DS9's PTLs eat up Vor'chas and unless Seafort would like to say otherwise, QTs are a good bit more powerful. So, if a few PTs can take down a Vor'cha then what could a volley of QTs do... Since Lakota matched Defiants shields and phasers and has QTLs the only difference is the armour. BUT, we have no reason to believe the battle between the two would last long enough to bypass the Lakota's shields and reach her hull.

Care to throw out a reply thats more then just a mindless rant?

[Captain Seafort]

And the blustering commences right on cue...

WotW. The Defiant engaged a trio of BoPs and a Vor'Cha without her shields up and still cruised back to DS9 and the Vor'cha broke off the attack after the Defiant raised her shields and left.

The Defiant caught three BoP attacking Dukat's Galor, disabled one in its first attack and later destroyed another. The Vorcha then arrived, and had most of its fire deflected by the Defiant's tractor beam - despite that the Defiant still had its armour shot to pieces and lost its cloak and aft torpedo launchers. Once the Cardies were on board, the Defiant then ran away.

If QTs could do the sort of damage to a Vor'cha you suggest, then why didn't Sisko simply destroy it, rather than resorting to a method that left the Defiant under fire for two minutes while the Cardies were beamed over?

We also see DS9's PTLs eat up Vor'chas and unless Seafort would like to say otherwise, QTs are a good bit more powerful.

Leaving aside the QT/PT argument, you're talking about ships that are seen destroyed attacking a station in a discussion about ship-to-ship combat. I'd like to see evidence that that ship (i.e. the single one were saw destroyed) hadn't already taken damage, especially as it was flanking the Negh'var, and was therefore was probably a priority target.

So, if a few PTs can take down a Vor'cha then what could a volley of QTs do...

A few PTs plus unknown prior damage, is evidently not enough to destroy one, evidently, given that Sisko didn't even try.

[Sionnach Glic]

This could take a while....

[Atekimogus]

The Vorcha then arrived, and had most of its fire deflected by the Defiant's tractor beam - despite that the Defiant still had its armour shot to pieces and lost its cloak and aft torpedo launchers.

Basically it was a plot device but in-universe I wonder why this isn't used more often in a fight. Assuming it IS actually working and wasn't just Sisko flying circles for an impressive FX-shot.

[Captain Seafort]

Basically it was a plot device but in-universe I wonder why this isn't used more often in a fight. Assuming it IS actually working and wasn't just Sisko flying circles for an impressive FX-shot.

The whole thing was a spur-of-the-moment idea from Worf, so it's not all that surprising that it hadn't been used before (something that would work with the Defiant wouldn't necessarily work with a lumbering brute like the GCS.

This could take a while....

Me and Deep do have something of a history don't we.

[Lt. Staplic]

you know, you two could do the DITL battle, Deep in a Lokata vs Seafort in a Vor'cha

[Sionnach Glic]

Me and Deep do have something of a history don't we.

The moment you replied to him I knew exactly where the thread was going.

[Atekimogus]

The whole thing was a spur-of-the-moment idea from Worf, so it's not all that surprising that it hadn't been used before (something that would work with the Defiant wouldn't necessarily work with a lumbering brute like the GCS.

Ah yes but did it work because the tractor was deflecting incoming shots/torpedo-rounds or did it work because the tractor + flying in circles managed to avoid the vorchas weapon arcs?

[kostmayer]

Having seen how the Defiant can move when it wants too, I'm not convinced that tractoring the nose of the Klingon ship like that would be any more effective then taking evasive manouevres.

In anycase, the disruptors of the Klingon ship dropped to 50% efficiency whilst the Defiant had her in her tractorbeams (don't shields protect against tractors?). Given the size of a Galaxy class compared to a Defiant, and comparative lack of agility, I doubt it would have deflected as much appeal.

[Captain Seafort]

In anycase, the disruptors of the Klingon ship dropped to 50% efficiency whilst the Defiant had her in her tractorbeams (don't shields protect against tractors?).

I don't think the Defiant was actually tractoring the Vor'cha, but using the beam as a sort of projected shield. As you say, shields do protect against tractor beams (although this can be overcome using frequency tricks, as with weapons), but even if they don't lock on they still cling to shields.

Incidentally, while it's a bit frustrating from an analytical point of view, OOU the whole thing was done very well - simply have Worf state that he had an idea, cut to the tractor beam being activated, then cut to Dax stating that it was working and the effectiveness of the Klingons fire was reduced. If it had been Voyager, there would probably have been a minute or two of technobabble to give everyone a headache without increasing their understanding of what was happening.

[Atekimogus]

I agree and I find it always good when ships make use out of all of their systems and I always wondered why they make not more use of tractor beams during fights. Limiting/hindering enemey maneuvarability and swipping missles torpedoes away seemed always like a good idea to me. (In STarfleet Command for example, you can make use of defensive tractors for catching missiles).

So yes, basically a good idea but in this certain case....how is a tractor beam supposed to reduce the effectivness of a beam weapon? And since agility doesn't seem to be a factor I do not see why another class of ship like Excelsior, Ambassador or GCS shouldn't make use of it as well. (No expert here but tractorbeams seem to follow rather strictly the "the bigger the ship, the bigger..." rule, so if there is a difference larger ships should even be more effective).

[Captain Seafort]

how is a tractor beam supposed to reduce the effectivness of a beam weapon? And since agility doesn't seem to be a factor I do not see why another class of ship like Excelsior, Ambassador or GCS shouldn't make use of it as well. (No expert here but tractorbeams seem to follow rather strictly the "the bigger the ship, the bigger..." rule, so if there is a difference larger ships should even be more effective).

As I mentioned above, it's possible the tractor acted as a sort of projected shield to deflect weapons fire away from the ship. While it's possible that such a tactic could be used by a GCS, the deflection would have to be much greater to be as effective, given the much greater size of the GCS. It's also possible that the fact that the Defiant is a much more robust design, as it's a purpose-built warship, also allows it to withstand greater forces (after all, the momentum of the weapon has to go somewhere).

[Mikey]

I'd always figured that the tractor projected some sort of local gravity focus, altering the trajectory of a weapon beam.

[Atekimogus]

As I mentioned above, it's possible the tractor acted as a sort of projected shield to deflect weapons fire away from the ship. While it's possible that such a tactic could be used by a GCS, the deflection would have to be much greater to be as effective, given the much greater size of the GCS.

Hm...why? Maybe I am thinking in the wrong direction here but the size of your projected shield would depend on the size of weapon beeing fired for example a disrupter beam/pulse. And if this would not be possible in realtime for whatever reasons the maximum size needed would be the firing arcs of your enemy you wish to cover, ja? So I guess the difference would be rather minimal but as I said maybe I am thinking completeley into the wrong technobabble direction .

I'd always figured that the tractor projected some sort of local gravity focus, altering the trajectory of a weapon beam.

I don't know....for torpedoes I would say maybe but do beam weapons have enough mass to be altered sufficently? The E-D sure hadn't any problems firing phasers through a borg tractor beam.