oh man

Handel · Post by **Handel** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:50 am

best series ever

and first post! w00t!

(what do I win?)

Post by **IanKennedy** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:56 am

The DTL special badge of DS9 Nerd of Honour.
Congratulations
Ian

Handel · Post by **Handel** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:23 am

sweet! can I get something for my profile?

I Am Spartacus · Post by **I Am Spartacus** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:26 am

Not for my money it wasn't. The Dominion War ruined a perfectly good series by turning it into another shoot-em-up, drive-off-the-galactic-fascists also-ran. Of course, I'm exaggerating just a smidgen, but the main reason I started watching Trek (aside from being indoctrinated with it by my parents as a child) was because of the non-violent content at odds with most other scifi.

I'll take TNG any day.

Bryan Moore · Post by **Bryan Moore** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:28 am

I think even in the violence, though, DS9 clearly sent non-violent messages, as the war was represented as horrendous, futile, etc. There was no glorification of war, but rather, it was portrayed as the last measure after all diplomatic solutions were exhausted.

I Am Spartacus · Post by **I Am Spartacus** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:36 am

Bryan Moore wrote:I think even in the violence, though, DS9 clearly sent non-violent messages, as the war was represented as horrendous, futile, etc. There was no glorification of war, but rather, it was portrayed as the last measure after all diplomatic solutions were exhausted.

You don't need to spend two seasons conveying the message that war is futile and horrendous. Star Trek simply shouldn't depict a war in which hundreds of millions are killed and so forth.

Besides, I'm a bit bothered with a slight lack of continuity. At the end of Best of Both Worlds, Shelley says something along the lines of "we'll have the fleet back up and running in no time" when they lost only around forty ships during Wolf 359. If, as in Sacrifice of Angels, the Federation had hundreds or upwards of a thousand ships, the loss of 40 would be inconsequential in the long run.

DS9 suffered from Battle of Endor syndrome: the desire to put as many ships as possible on screen at one time.

I'm rambling here and should probably start another topic on this...

Handel · Post by **Handel** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:07 am

oh man (yeah I know that's the subject I gave it...)

okay I respect that opinion about violence and how sci-fi can have too much of it without any thought (cf Enterprise season 1...) or baddies that don't have that much thought in them (again, cf Enterprise season 1). And if you're committed to non-violence for non-violence's sake, then that's respectable too. However to me the war took so much thought, and the Founders took so much thought, that it was not only justifiable, but it's a big part of what made the series for. The thing about all those shoot-em-ups and what not, and heck the thing about putting a crew on a ship and sending them off, is that it becomes about the new adventure, or the new problem, or the new bad guy. In a word, it becomes about the story. Now the new adventures faced by Picard's, Janeway's, Kirk's, and yes, sometimes Archer's crews were definitely very imaginative, so this approach is by no means a bad one. It's just not as good, in my opinion, as what DS9 was about: the people. Sure they faced different challenges, but it's the consistency of the setting and in the latter seasons the continuous plot of the war, that allowed us to really see a group of people living together, struggling together, growing together, and ultimately triumphing together. And it was masterfully done.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:38 pm

I wasn't that big of a DS9 fan in the beginning,(don't know why, it just never held my attention the way other series did) but as the series grew I found myself enjoying it quite a lot.

@I am Spartacus
In my opinion I felt the Dominion war was created to try and get people who wouldn't be interested in 'clasic' Trek to watch the show by putting a lot of fighting and pretty explosions on the screen.
However, I felt it also made the Trek universe a bit more down to earth in that it showed no matter how peacefull and civilised you are there will always be a time when you must protect yourself.

If you want peace, you must prepare for war. - Sun Tzu

A question for members in the UK or Ireland, do any of you know if they are re-runing the series on any channel? I've looked but am unable to find it anywhere.

Space Ghost · Post by **Space Ghost** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:05 pm

I have to say that DS9, in many ways, was my favorite series. While TNG is what first got me interested in Trek, DS9 added a whole new element to the universe. Some of the best episodes I have ever seen (in Trek or SciFi as a whole) came from this series.

Every franchise needs its dark side--for Star Trek, is was DS9.

Secretmirk · Post by **Secretmirk** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:28 pm

I'am fully with you, "I Am Spartacus". Said with all respect concerning DS9-Fans, DS9 is perverted Star Trek for me, dumb war-action or a kind of war-soap sold as a premium brand under the trademark of a former different series well known for good ideas and a high level of "common sense". The Dominion was the hundred-times told old story of a super-enemy that is suddenly not so super any more but a prolonged period of fighting is excused with that.

Because of that thinking I was at least one of the people contacting Graham Kennedy and complaining about the "Galactic War"-Poll, lasting around 16 (!) weeks. Taking a look back in my mail of that time, I'm not surprised. I predicted, that the Federation would win, another end seemed completly impossible to me according to what is known from all series. What else could be expected? In Trek the Federation is the good party and so the creators would always finally let them win somehow.
I wasn't expecting the actual poll to bring the result, that Trek is too violent now but I'm satisfied to see, that around 30% think so the same. That's a number which is not to be underestimated!

I'm fully aware of the fact, that true Star Trek is much to positive and naive in relation to the real world but somehow you have to give hope and strenght to the people to hold on to good ideals because the people praying fear, hate, fanatism of the religious and political side will always be in the majority in common media. But without the more silent "good" people, being open-minded, tolerant and open for changes, the world would surely be much faster one step over the cliffs than it seems to be already.

With best wishes!
Secretmirk

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:36 pm

I also have to say to I Am Spartacus
That DS9 was the Best series not only because of the Dominion war, which helped it but because tackled real-life things such as Post Tramatic Stress Disorder ect

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:44 pm

A few more thoughts to add.

In TOS I am of the opinion that the mirror universe episode was one of the better ones. This is because we got to see a darker Federation, one that is cruel, prejudiced and opresive.

In DS9 during the war we saw the darker side of the Federation, it began to care less about the principals it was founded on and more about its own survival. To me I felt like I was watching the fall of the Federation, and I felt that if they continued much farther they would, unknowingly, turn themselves into the Terran Empire. They were even willing to stoop to genocide to win the war.

I can't speak for others but when I was watching the Dominion war I didn't see the Federation trying to fight off tyrany so much as the Federation falling into tyrany itself. It is for those reasons I liked DS9, we saw how close the Federation came to becoming what it always stood against.

I Am Spartacus · Post by **I Am Spartacus** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:56 am

I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy DS9. I did, very much so, including most of the last two seasons. I'm not saying that it isn't quality television. What I am saying is that it wasn't Star Trek. You don't need a devastating World War scenario to depict the darker sides of the Federation. Star Trek VI did this perfectly, and showed the resolve of our heroes to avoid such destructive conflicts at all costs even if it meant their own lives (ie. Kirk ordering a surrender to Kronos One rather than raise his shields).

As Secretmirk said, much of Star Trek's traditionally positive message is unrealistic. But that's why I enjoy it so much: I enjoy seeing a universe that isn't all doom and gloom, I enjoy the message that the future will be a truly great place to live in.

DBS · Post by **DBS** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:22 am

Regarding all those who feel that Star Trek optimism can err on the side of naivete, I do not mean to ridicule your point of view. Certainly some of the best sci-fi currently in production

shows the darker aspects of humanity that most think will never go away, and shows flawed characters making do the best they can.

I don't personally believe that Trek is like that, naive or not. I also don't necessarily think that it ever should be like that. To me it seems to be about dealing with those unseemly aspects of human nature in a better way than we do now. In some sense that might mean that some behaviours we regard as universal and immutable now might in fact be overcome.

Consider what has changed in the last four hundred years! Today it is (almost) inconceivable that a person be judged inferior or as a person to be dominated over because of race, gender, or religion. Slavery has been nearly eradicated, and is frowned on to the point that most people do not even think of the idea! Racism is steadily becoming a relic, but we have a very long way to go.

Yes, we still have many problems and yes, it is discouraging (especially continuous religious strife), but we have in fact come a long ways in four hundred years. And consider that "progress" is expected to occur even faster in the future. I don't think that near-complete social tolerance is a very naive idea in four hundred years, (or even a hundred and fifty!) Perhaps the knee-jerk reaction to danger with fighting will be less apparent then as well.

Star Trek is not, in my mind, supposed to be a futurist depiction of "THIS is what it will be like..." Rather, the human reactions to problems set goals for humanity. In the 60's, people considered having a racially-integrated crew naive! So I find it a little disheartening when Trek is given a dose of "realism". I think that it dilutes the philosophy. Sure, it might be naive to be incessantly positive and minimize character flaws. Sure, it might never happen, or at least not soon. But we should at least strive for it!

Of course, I loved the war arcs in DS9, though. (Yes, this actually has something to do with the thread...) I just think it is a little "un Trek like". I attribute it to a need to bring more and more action to the cast, (being in one place) rather than going out and seeking adventures. And it IS a great story. And it is more, dare I say positive, than other sci-fi war stories. But you hopefully see my point, at least philosophically, whether or not you agree. Trek is about the idea that our species can be better. Not about fighting a massive (deeply cool) war!

herelad · Post by **herelad** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:18 am

Lots have people have talked about the Dominion War presenting a darker picture of the Federation, but I would argue that it showed the exact opposite.

The way I see it, the Dominion War was about the Federation (a conglomeration of species who have united their resources for the purposes of peaceful exploration) against its exact opposite, i.e. the Dominion (a conglomeration of species that have united their resources for the purposes of violent conquest). From the Dominion's belief in strength through force to their use of genetic manipulation and drug-addiction to produce disposable troops like the Jem'Hadar, the Dominion is diametrically opposed to the Federation's ideals.

Therefore the war can be seen as the ultimate test of the Federation's ideals and principles. Its all very well for Kirk or Picard or even Janeway to sit back and look smug after overcoming some minor alien race who have 'lost their way' and that took only an hour or so to convince that peace and non-interference is the way forward, but quite another for those ideals to stand up to a people who have been conditioned from birth to stand for the exact opposite.

The Dominion War story arch is about the Federation's struggle to hold on to their values in an increasingly violent and brutalising conflict. Sometimes they lose touch with these ideals and have to remind themselves what they are fighting for, but then against so did Kirk in [i]The Unidiscovered Country[/i], and Picard in [i]First Contact[/i]. The point is that as hard as it may seem at times, the Federation never truly gives up on these principles, and in the end they win through. Let's not forget, in the end even the Cardassians turned on the Dominion, and the war was brought to a peaceful conclusion, rather than some climactic battle above Cardassia Prime. Indeed, at the very end of DS9 even the Founders seem to be facing the prospect of redemption as Odo goes to share what he has learned from living in the Federation.

Ultimately then, the Dominion War if anything reaffirmed Gene Roddenberry's message that no matter how bleak the present may look, the future will be bright so long as we don't let go of our faith in the ability of peace to win over violence in the end.

oh man

oh man

oh man

oh man

Re: Dominion War