musings on the most famous of grudges

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:52 pm

The aging and downsizing of the armed forces in starfleet has caused a large drop in concern for combat preperation.

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:58 pm

Oh yeah, I was actually going to reply to the latest topic in this thread...

I agree with all the points made about why there would be a larger proportion of humans in Starfleet than in the Federation in general. However, I still don't think that accounts for the degree of disparity. What we see on starships is probably 70% - 80% human crews!

It could also be because makeup costs a lot of money...

True, but like so many other things in 'Trek an in-universe explanation should have been provided when production requirements caused something not to make sense.

Post by **Teaos** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:59 pm

On the plus side no one seems to have a decent land army. So while it may be stupid at least everyone is stupid. It levels the playing field.

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:03 pm

Maybe not a standing army as such, but I would say the Klingons have a pretty decent force of soldiers/"marines" on hand; "AR-558" tactics (or lack thereof) notwithstanding, the Dominion are able to field some pretty tough combatants too (although all you really have to do is hide until the White runs out.)

And, while I don't recall having seen them in real tactical action, according to recollections of Setlik III, etc., the Cardassians seem to be more formidable opponents in country than they do in space.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:16 pm

Maybe not a standing army as such, but I would say the Klingons have a pretty decent force of soldiers/"marines" on hand; "AR-558" tactics (or lack thereof) notwithstanding, the Dominion are able to field some pretty tough combatants too (although all you really have to do is hide until the White runs out.)

Er, Klingon tactics seem to revolve around 'scream loudly at oponent and charge with stupid-looking sword.'
Dominion tactics seem to revolve around 'scream loudly at oponent and charge with guns.'
Sun Tzu, these guys are not...

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:28 pm

Jem'Hadar seem to get a bad press, mainly because of their stupidity at AR-558. They captured the Defiant several times, only to either be told to give it back by the Founders, or loose it through Alpha stupidity. Their boarding of DS9 in "Call to Arms" was competent, with one shoving the airlock open while others pushed through and swept the area, as was their entry into Ops, where they kept alert and their weapons stayed up, despite having already been welcomed and with no apparent resistance. They've also demonstrated an awareness of camouflage and concealment (the shrouds) and used mortars in "The Ship". They're definitely some of the more competent Trek ground forces (which, admittedly, isn't saying much).

You also malign the the Klingons - they fire half a dozen shots then charge with stupid-looking swords.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:39 pm

Hmm, a good point Seafort. I guess I was just applying the idiocy to all situations.

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:20 pm

I didn't say that they were the strategic equals of Erwin Rommel. I just said, and maintain, that they have prowess at interpersonal combat.

Apparently, with the decline of the usage of ground-pounders, there has been an equivalent decline in strategic intelligence. Those "screaming loudly" tactics don't make much sense, but still appear superior to Starfleet infantry tactics - which consist of "hole up for a while, then wander out into the enemy's line of fire."

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:08 pm

I thought Starfleet tactics consisted of 'follow captain around for a while until all the mobile shields (aka: redshirts) have been used up. Pull miracle out of ass to save day.'

Monroe · Post by **Monroe** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:09 pm

Then when you look at Enterprise the ground forces had pretty good tactics. It was like having a special ops team on the Enterprise. Seems Trek loses that ability the more advance they get.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:20 pm

Indeed, ground combat seems to die out as time goes along but maybe the dominion war will change that.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:33 pm

Seems unlikely, the Jem'hadar's main strength was that they were marginally more competant than the Federation and its allie.

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:21 am

The Jem Hadars strongest point is their ability to self sacrifice. They disregard for their own live makes them formidable.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:17 am

True. But human wave tactics were rendered useless with the inevntion of the machine gun. Lucky for the Jem'hadar, the Feds apear to have lost such weapons.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:50 pm

I happen to think the bajorans have some good grounds troops, in fact i think that they only have ground troops.