Sulu vs Chekov

[Mikey]

We saw the same thing with Germany and Japan before WWII; as long as they were winning everything was fine, there was no reason to rock the boat. Bajoran suppression? Maquis atrocities? Eh, who cares? As long as the trains run on time.

Are you kidding? My family no doubt has greater cause to despise the Nazi atrocities than yours; but are you honestly saying that I should blame every German that I might meet for what the Nazis did - or worse, are you insinuating that I actually do? Should the people of Germany have risen up to stop what Hitler did? Sure. Do I hold them accountable in the same degree as the actual perpetrators? No - that would be ludicrous.

Not unpopular enough for Joe Cardassian to stop it, I see.

Again, I must assume that this is some sort of twisted joke. Have you ever seen what happens to civil opponents of a junta or coup? And you are blaming Cardassian husbands, wives, fathers, and mothers for not volunteering for glorious but empty martyrdom?

[Captain Seafort]

I didn't say Federation policy should be to abandon the Cardassians, just that I did not have any sympathy for them and they got what they deserved. Now that they have been utterly crushed by the Dominion and Alliance the Cardassians can now live as a subject state and ultimately create a powerful economic state that will construct superior shuttlecrafts, holodecks and replicators. Eventually Cardassian corporations will construct facilities in Federation territory, employing Federation citizens and giving Federation shipyards serious competition. Soon Starfleet will be buying Cardassian. Add to that Federation corporation using outsourced labor to Romulans (i.e. telecommunication) combined with Bajoran illegal aliens flooding across Federation borders working cheaply, I can ultimately see the downfall of the Federation.

There's one huge flaw in that analysis - it assumes a capitalist system in the Federation. An assumption that is disproved by a pretty cursory examination of TNG. There's no money, no private companies, no privately owned transport, state-controlled science, and extremely deep military involvement in the government. It bears all the hallmarks of communism.

On top of that, assuming the Federation starts adopting Cardassian construction techniques, so what? Cardassian designs, while less powerful, are a lot more solid than Starfleet's "sneeze and they'll explode" warp cores, and their ships lack the exposed necks and nacelles of Starfleet's ships. Adopting some of those methods would improve the fleet considerably. Finally I'd like to see some evidence that the Federation is getting any technology from the Romulans, and that the Bajorans would count as "illegal aliens" - all the evidence points towards them accepting Federation membership in the near future.

[Tsukiyumi]

Seafort, I think you missed the underlying meanings there.

Replace "Cardassia" with "Japan", "Federation" with "USA", "Romulans" with "India", and "Bajoran" with "Mexican", and I think you'll see what I mean.

[Captain Seafort]

Oh, the underlying comparisons are screamingly obvious - it doesn't mean they're in any way accurate.

[Tsukiyumi]

Oh, the underlying comparisons are screamingly obvious - it doesn't mean they're in any way accurate.

It sure doesn't fit the 'Trek political landscape.

[Sionnach Glic]

Not unpopular enough for Joe Cardassian to stop it, I see.

By that logic the vast majority of the US population must support the occupation of Iraq. After all, I don't see any uprisings against Bush, so everyone must support him, right?

[Mikey]

Not unpopular enough for Joe Cardassian to stop it, I see.

By that logic the vast majority of the US population must support the occupation of Iraq. After all, I don't see any uprisings against Bush, so everyone must support him, right?

Or the majority of Ugandans supported Idi Amin, or the majority of Cambodians supported Pol Pot. It really is a ridiculous analogy.

[Sionnach Glic]

Exactly, you can make the same reasoning for virtualy every tyrant.

[katefan]

Are you kidding? My family no doubt has greater cause to despise the Nazi atrocities than yours...

You are assuming quite a bit there. How do you know whether or not I am Jewish, or have Romany blood, or my family's art collection was not blatantly stolen by the Nazis? Don't assume that my dislike/hatred of the Third Reich is any more or less relevant than yours.

In any case, I am not Jewish, I am a German/Irish Lutheran. So perhaps my outrage stems from shame that anyone remotely related to me could have perpetrated those horrible crimes, or could have sat idly by while it happened.

but are you honestly saying that I should blame every German that I might meet for what the Nazis did - or worse, are you insinuating that I actually do? Should the people of Germany have risen up to stop what Hitler did? Sure. Do I hold them accountable in the same degree as the actual perpetrators? No - that would be ludicrous.

The first concentration camp liberated by the allies was constructed right beside a town. The townsfolk claimed they had no idea what was going on right under their noses, despite the numerous trains that dropped off Jews and did not leave with any, that had furnaces going non stop morning, noon and night. Bull. No one noticed the suddenly empty homes in their neighborhoods? Again, as long as their side was winning, everything was juuuuust fine with the average German. Don't ask questions, it's none my business. I have zero sympathy for the German of that time period.

Again, I must assume that this is some sort of twisted joke. Have you ever seen what happens to civil opponents of a junta or coup? And you are blaming Cardassian husbands, wives, fathers, and mothers for not volunteering for glorious but empty martyrdom?

So are you saying that rather than resist/defy oppression people should just knuckle under and let it happen as long as the atrocities are happening to someone else? I am not denying that defiance against oppression is hard, sometimes almost impossible. But we have seen courageous acts in the face of oppression before, revolutions are about defying the status quo and blood often runs as a result, and sometimes to enact change sacrifices have to be made, even if it is in the cause of martrydom.

[katefan]

I didn't say Federation policy should be to abandon the Cardassians, just that I did not have any sympathy for them and they got what they deserved. Now that they have been utterly crushed by the Dominion and Alliance the Cardassians can now live as a subject state and ultimately create a powerful economic state that will construct superior shuttlecrafts, holodecks and replicators. Eventually Cardassian corporations will construct facilities in Federation territory, employing Federation citizens and giving Federation shipyards serious competition. Soon Starfleet will be buying Cardassian. Add to that Federation corporation using outsourced labor to Romulans (i.e. telecommunication) combined with Bajoran illegal aliens flooding across Federation borders working cheaply, I can ultimately see the downfall of the Federation.

There's one huge flaw in that analysis - it assumes a capitalist system in the Federation. An assumption that is disproved by a pretty cursory examination of TNG. There's no money, no private companies, no privately owned transport, state-controlled science, and extremely deep military involvement in the government. It bears all the hallmarks of communism.

On top of that, assuming the Federation starts adopting Cardassian construction techniques, so what? Cardassian designs, while less powerful, are a lot more solid than Starfleet's "sneeze and they'll explode" warp cores, and their ships lack the exposed necks and nacelles of Starfleet's ships. Adopting some of those methods would improve the fleet considerably. Finally I'd like to see some evidence that the Federation is getting any technology from the Romulans, and that the Bajorans would count as "illegal aliens" - all the evidence points towards them accepting Federation membership in the near future.

It was a joke; the Cardassians are Japanese, Romulans Indian, Bajoran Mexicans. Apparently not a very good joke. :/

[katefan]

Not unpopular enough for Joe Cardassian to stop it, I see.

By that logic the vast majority of the US population must support the occupation of Iraq. After all, I don't see any uprisings against Bush, so everyone must support him, right?

Or the majority of Ugandans supported Idi Amin, or the majority of Cambodians supported Pol Pot. It really is a ridiculous analogy.

But we have seen vocal opposition to Bush on every level; legal, media, political, social. If Joe Cardassian was really against what was going on on Bajor, if they were against what the government was doing against the Maquis, then the writers/producers should have produced more evidence of this rather than the monolithic monoculture we were largely exposed to. There were one or two instances where we saw people who felt Cardassian behavior was horrible, but not nearly enough for me to believe that the populace at large was just fine with the policies of their leaders.

[Tsukiyumi]

So are you saying that rather than resist/defy oppression people should just knuckle under and let it happen as long as the atrocities are happening to someone else? I am not denying that defiance against oppression is hard, sometimes almost impossible. But we have seen courageous acts in the face of oppression before, revolutions are about defying the status quo and blood often runs as a result, and sometimes to enact change sacrifices have to be made, even if it is in the cause of martrydom.

I completely agree with and endorse this statement.

Defiance against tyranny and oppression is the reason barely 10,000 of my tribe are alive today. At least we f*cking tried to fight.

[Sionnach Glic]

But we have seen vocal opposition to Bush on every level; legal, media, political, social. If Joe Cardassian was really against what was going on on Bajor, if they were against what the government was doing against the Maquis, then the writers/producers should have produced more evidence of this rather than the monolithic monoculture we were largely exposed to. There were one or two instances where we saw people who felt Cardassian behavior was horrible, but not nearly enough for me to believe that the populace at large was just fine with the policies of their leaders.

And just how many Joe Cardassians did we see in the series? Not many. We can't say whether or not there were such protests. Hell, given the CU's opressive government it's quite possible that any such protests would have been shut down by force. That every single Cardassian, with the exception of one or two, thought the exact same thing is illogical.

[Tsukiyumi]

I always had the impression that the Cardassian resistance included a few more people than just Damar, Kira, Garak, and his grandma...

[Teaos]

You'd hope so...