Shuttlecraft Construction

[Mikey]

Is there any inherent lack of morality in replicating an army of soldiers from a replicator pattern? One presumes that if you select a willing and eager volunteer for the pattern all the replicated soldiers will be equally willing and eager. And if any change their minds, you just let them resign and go about their business. What's the ethical issue here?

I don't have an issue with it, and I don't think the issue would be with the assumption of forced conscription. The UFP just seems to have a pretty heavy bias against cloning.

[Graham Kennedy]

They have a problem with genetic engineering, I don't recall them ever objecting to cloning.

[Captain Seafort]

Riker and Pulaski certainly objected vehemently in "Up the Long Ladder", and the fact that they weren't tried for murder suggests that the Federation as a whole agreed with them.

[Mark]

And then Bashir gestated the clone of the guy who tried to frame Odo for murder to full maturity, and let him begin his life.

And in Enterprise, Sim WAS a clone, bred specifically to save Tripp. They even ended his life to do so.

[Captain Seafort]

And then Bashir gestated the clone of the guy who tried to frame Odo for murder to full maturity, and let him begin his life.

I think it's more likely that this indicates a difference between Bajoran and Federation law - Odo specifically stated that "killing your own clone is still murder", and yet Riker and Pulsaki faced no charges. DS9 is a Bajoran station, and so Bajoran law would apply.

[Mark]

And then Bashir gestated the clone of the guy who tried to frame Odo for murder to full maturity, and let him begin his life.

I think it's more likely that this indicates a difference between Bajoran and Federation law - Odo specifically stated that "killing your own clone is still murder", and yet Riker and Pulsaki faced no charges. DS9 is a Bajoran station, and so Bajoran law would apply.

Damn, I forgot completely about that. I think you may be right, in that being Bajoran law, but, is it possible that Riker and Pulaski didn't face charges because their DNA was FORCEABLLY taken?

[katefan]

And then Bashir gestated the clone of the guy who tried to frame Odo for murder to full maturity, and let him begin his life.

I think it's more likely that this indicates a difference between Bajoran and Federation law - Odo specifically stated that "killing your own clone is still murder", and yet Riker and Pulsaki faced no charges. DS9 is a Bajoran station, and so Bajoran law would apply.

Riker and Pulaski's clones were not fully formed. I see it the same way as abortion law in the United States operates; if the fetus does not take a breath outside the womb then it is not considered a life by law. This is why the abortionist extinguishes the life of the fetus while still in the womb.

Pulaski and Riker's clones were still unformed and in their "wombs" so I guess it was all right to kill them.

[Mikey]

And in Enterprise, Sim WAS a clone, bred specifically to save Tripp. They even ended his life to do so.

When there is no UFP (yet,) you can't really apply or infer Federation law or sensibilities.

I see it the same way as abortion law in the United States operates; if the fetus does not take a breath outside the womb then it is not considered a life by law. This is why the abortionist extinguishes the life of the fetus while still in the womb.

Umm.. abortion is illegal after a certain point in the pregnancy. I think the exact latest date of the pregnancy is up to the individual states, and laws differ of course dependign on whether you're talking about protecting the mother's life, mental health issues, or rape or incest; but "on request" abortions are not legal up to full gestation.

[Graham Kennedy]

Riker and Pulaski certainly objected vehemently in "Up the Long Ladder", and the fact that they weren't tried for murder suggests that the Federation as a whole agreed with them.

The issue there was that it was done against their will.

One might also argue that they weren't on Federation property at the time, and so not subject to Federation law. And since they got back to the ship without being caught, and the Federation had no extradition treaty with that planet, then there was nothing to charge them with.

You might also argue that since the clones were not fully formed they wouldn't count as alive anyway; it was more abortion than murder.

[Mikey]

Riker and Pulaski certainly objected vehemently in "Up the Long Ladder", and the fact that they weren't tried for murder suggests that the Federation as a whole agreed with them.

The issue there was that it was done against their will.

That would reflect on charges being brought against the Mariposans for stealing DNA samples; it shouldn't have any bearing any charges for killing the things NOT being brought against Riker and Pulaski.

[katefan]

And in Enterprise, Sim WAS a clone, bred specifically to save Tripp. They even ended his life to do so.

When there is no UFP (yet,) you can't really apply or infer Federation law or sensibilities.

I see it the same way as abortion law in the United States operates; if the fetus does not take a breath outside the womb then it is not considered a life by law. This is why the abortionist extinguishes the life of the fetus while still in the womb.

Umm.. abortion is illegal after a certain point in the pregnancy. I think the exact latest date of the pregnancy is up to the individual states, and laws differ of course dependign on whether you're talking about protecting the mother's life, mental health issues, or rape or incest; but "on request" abortions are not legal up to full gestation.

It is true that abortion is illegal past a certain point, but the same could apply to the clone; it is obvious the clones were not fully formed so it could easily be argued from an ethical standpoint that there was no murder of an individual. Just because the clones were human sized does not mean that they were anywhere close to being human.

[Graham Kennedy]

Riker and Pulaski certainly objected vehemently in "Up the Long Ladder", and the fact that they weren't tried for murder suggests that the Federation as a whole agreed with them.

The issue there was that it was done against their will.

That would reflect on charges being brought against the Mariposans for stealing DNA samples; it shouldn't have any bearing any charges for killing the things NOT being brought against Riker and Pulaski.

It certainly seemed to be the moral justification they used for their actions, although they didn't defend them specifically so we'll never know.

Legally it's a vague issue, as I said. Who would charge them, and with what?

[Mikey]

I guess it wouldn't matter what the Federation law was; they'd be under Mariposan jurisdiction.

[Graham Kennedy]

I guess it wouldn't matter what the Federation law was; they'd be under Mariposan jurisdiction.

But they escaped back to Federation territory afterwards, so the Mariposans had no right to charge them with anything.

[Aaron]

But they escaped back to Federation territory afterwards, so the Mariposans had no right to charge them with anything.

I imagine if they returned that they would be thrown in cells. Rather like Fred Phelps and Canada.