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Post by Captain Seafort »

Thorin wrote:People keep saying about bringing reinforcements, but whats the point of going in so secretively in the first place, if they're going to all out attack anyway! They've just declared war by invading the Federation, why make such a secret out of it? To take Vulcan for maybe a day or two before half of Starfleet reclaims it?
The reason for going in secretly is to establish a bridgehead. If they sent a fleet Starfleet would spot it crossing the neutral zone, and would be able to concentrate forces around Vulcan. If they get forces on the ground and seize strategic points (landing areas, communications centres, command posts, any surface-to-space weapons, starbases, etc) they provide a beachhead for follow-up-forces to build on and make Starfleet do the attacking. Never underestimate the value of a good defensive position.
And Spacedocks must have millions of people on them. The saucer section of a Galaxy class starship can hold about 1000 people easily (very few live in the Stardrive). I don't even need to do any calculations and I can tell you that spacedock is well over a 1000 times larger than the saucer section - even just the main bulk of it at the top.
In BoBW they would definitely have moved off to Wolf 359 - they sent every ship in range. Not sure about the DS9 episodes, though.
You've given evidence that a spacedock sized structure can hold millions, but no evidence that it does or that Vulcan possesses a starbase of that size. I also refer you once again to Homefront/Paradise Lost - the Lakota was the only starship in Earth orbit. It seems that by the time of "Endgame" (after the war and th Breen attack) Starfleet had remedied that mistake.
You don't need agression to organise an uprising. It is 6 billion v 3000. That is two million to one.
Starfleet is stupid, but the Romulans are even more stupid if they think they can hold the Federation's second homeworld. Can you imagine 3 Federation transports (even disguised as Romulan ones) managing to single handedly, with 3000 troops, take over Romulus? There is very little difference.
You do need agressionif you're going to fight - and the Vulcans have always shown a distinct lack of it.

Shuttles can attack, true, but why do they need to hold ground when theres plenty of Vulcans on the ground and they've killed all the Romulans? Lower Decks does only very little superficial damage. With shields up and all the systems (including SIF) online, a hand held phaser would do nothing against a shuttle that can fire phasers several orders of magnitude more powerful than hand held ones.
There are civilian Vulcans on the ground. By the logic you're using no country needs an army because the air force can kill all their enemies. Air strikes will not kill all the Romulans, and the civilians on the ground (unarmed I might add) are not the army you'd need to root out an enemy in street by street fighting.
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Post by Teaos »

Civilans are resistant. They make weapons they steal tham. They would fight back. It is in the nature of everything to fight back.
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Post by Thorin »

You don't need aggression to be resistant at all, I have no idea why you would ever think that.
The reason why I can't understand them going ahead in secret is because they're going so far into Federation space. Vulcan is in the heart of the federation! It's not a foothold. If it were in WW2, It would have been like the Nazis sending 1000 soldiers to take a foothold in the USA, expecting to eventually take it! It wouldn't happen, Vulcan is simply too far away from Romulan space. I could understand them gaining a foothold on one in the neutral zone or in the nearest sectors, but Vulcan is outrageous. And how 3000 could possibly expect to take on the entire population of a planet is outrageous, and how they could possibly expect, even with reinforcements on the way, to take a planet that is surrounded 360 degrees by Starfleet, is absurd.
A spacedock would hold millions, surely there can be no doubt. What else would they need all that space for? It'd be about the same ratio of people:space as the saucer section of a galaxy, wouldn't it? And I'm only on about the main bulk of it, all the bottom of it can have all the power plant and weapons etc. Though fair enough, there is no proof of a spacedock being there, but if there were, it would definitely be millions. And You'd expect to find the best starbases at Vulcan and Earth.
Regarding the Lakota; I'm not sure but isn't that just because that was the only ship which was loyal to Leyton? But still, that hardly counts. This was war, they had all their ships on the frontlines. In BoBW they had 30 something ships all in the vicinity of earth, and in Endgame they had 27 all in the vicinity of earth. There's no remedy - in wartime you don't have all your ships surrounding a planet so that eventually that will be your only planet remaining.

Vulcan civilians? Not all Vulcans of the "military" type enter starfleet, they have their own organisations, too. There would be plenty that would have a military background and have plenty of phasers.

Even still, none of this compares to how idiotic the Romulans are to think they can hold a planet in the middle of Federation space, while at war with the Federation.
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Post by Captain Seafort »

Thorin wrote:You don't need aggression to be resistant at all, I have no idea why you would ever think that.
Resistance requires fighting. Fighting requires aggression. Developing the required aggression is a major part of military training. While civilians have in the past demonstrated this aggression (the French, Dutch, Yugoslavs, Russians, etc, etc during WW2 for example), Vulcans have never demonstrated this, and indeed a collectivist state like the Federation would actively discourage it.
The reason why I can't understand them going ahead in secret is because they're going so far into Federation space. Vulcan is in the heart of the federation! It's not a foothold. If it were in WW2, It would have been like the Nazis sending 1000 soldiers to take a foothold in the USA, expecting to eventually take it! It wouldn't happen, Vulcan is simply too far away from Romulan space.
Against an armed nation like the US, sure it'd fail. Against such a pacifist culture as Vulcan, it's another matter.
I could understand them gaining a foothold on one in the neutral zone or in the nearest sectors, but Vulcan is outrageous. And how 3000 could possibly expect to take on the entire population of a planet is outrageous, and how they could possibly expect, even with reinforcements on the way, to take a planet that is surrounded 360 degrees by Starfleet, is absurd.
They're sending a Trojan Horse remember. That would give them the element of surprise they needed to seize their initial targets. Once they've seized those targets, it would be a devil of a job to gt them out. During the 1916 Easter Rising, the Irish Volunteers were able to seize key points around Dublin within a few hours. It took the British Army a week to dislodge them, with the advantages of machine guns and artillery, neither of which the Federation has. Even then, the rebels surrendered after the fall of the GPO rather than keep fighting, which the other positions were still capable of doing.
A spacedock would hold millions, surely there can be no doubt. What else would they need all that space for? It'd be about the same ratio of people:space as the saucer section of a galaxy, wouldn't it? And I'm only on about the main bulk of it, all the bottom of it can have all the power plant and weapons etc. Though fair enough, there is no proof of a spacedock being there, but if there were, it would definitely be millions. And You'd expect to find the best starbases at Vulcan and Earth.
You'd also expect a proper military to have artillery, machine guns, AFVs and no civilians on starships. We've never seen any starbase at Vulcan, so we can't make assumptions.
Regarding the Lakota; I'm not sure but isn't that just because that was the only ship which was loyal to Leyton? But still, that hardly counts. This was war, they had all their ships on the frontlines. In BoBW they had 30 something ships all in the vicinity of earth, and in Endgame they had 27 all in the vicinity of earth. There's no remedy - in wartime you don't have all your ships surrounding a planet so that eventually that will be your only planet remaining.
When they were establishing martial law at the end of "Homefront", they specifically mentioned using the Lakota's transporters to mobilise Starfleet personnel on Earth. No mention of any other ship, or of orbital facilities.
Vulcan civilians? Not all Vulcans of the "military" type enter starfleet, they have their own organisations, too. There would be plenty that would have a military background and have plenty of phasers.

Even still, none of this compares to how idiotic the Romulans are to think they can hold a planet in the middle of Federation space, while at war with the Federation.
There's been no mention of a Vulcan military during TNG. There's been no mention of Vulcan households having enough firepower to hold off an infantry platoon like in the US, and given the Federation's politics it's extremely unlikely. The Federation approach to military preparedness in the TNG-era has always been "rely on Starfleet". If Starfleet can't stop the Romulans getting to Vulcan (which they wouldn't have given the Romulan's Trojan Horse tactic) then Vulcan has had it.

In addition to this evidence from other episodes, look at Picard's Data's and Spock's reaction to being told the Romulan plan. If Vulcan could brush off the attack easilly, as you're claiming you'd have though they'd have mentioned it. They didn't. Not even as a show of bravado to Sela. This strongly implies that had they not been able to escape and warn Starfleet the plan would have worked.
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Post by Thorin »

Captain Seafort wrote: Resistance requires fighting. Fighting requires aggression.
I'll just assume you've never ever seen an episode of Voyager or The Original Series, then. Considering Tuvok and Spock are always fighting. Tuvok especially in "bliss". Vulcans are martial arts masters - it doesn't require aggression, just skill and control.

It was exactly described as "the romulan invasion force". Not "part of" or "a bit". You cannot hold a planet of 6 billion with 3000 people. It just doesn't work. Not only that, but holding it while a few hundred Starfleet ships are attempting to reclaim it. It's absurd and it's that simple.
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Post by Captain Seafort »

Thorin wrote:
Captain Seafort wrote: Resistance requires fighting. Fighting requires aggression.
I'll just assume you've never ever seen an episode of Voyager or The Original Series, then. Considering Tuvok and Spock are always fighting. Tuvok especially in "bliss". Vulcans are martial arts masters - it doesn't require aggression, just skill and control.
Tuvok and Spock are both Starfleet officers, whereas we were discussing the reaction of the civilian Vulcan population to a Romulan invsion. Can you honestly see them doing anything but sit on their arses and await the outcome? Their reaction would probably something along the lines of "the logical course of action is to avoid provoking the Romulans and await Starfleet's response".
It was exactly described as "the romulan invasion force". Not "part of" or "a bit". You cannot hold a planet of 6 billion with 3000 people. It just doesn't work. Not only that, but holding it while a few hundred Starfleet ships are attempting to reclaim it. It's absurd and it's that simple.
The D-Day invasion force was far less than the full strength of the allied forces that were eventually built up on the continent. I doubt very much that Starfleet could concentrate such a large fleet as the one you suggest in less than a month, given that it took them several days to concentrate a few dozen ships at Wolf 359.
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Post by Deepcrush »

All points lead to zero, it was a poorly laid out plan. It would have failed but again it was just another romulan ploy. They don't like attacking first, but they do like to piss people off. It may have just been a plot to test the federations willingness for war. Or to draw off starships into a preplanned spot so the romulans could launch a second and much more powerful attack else where and try to catch the fleet off guard and off balance.

Oh and i thought it was 2000 troops. But even if it were 10,000 they would have lost. They were cannon fodder. Just there to draw attention away from something else.

Think of it like this, it may help to understand it a little better.
1 guy jumps a group of 5,
you and your other 10 friends come to helpout or watch,
then 10 of his friends jump you from behind,
you out number them by far but they got the drop on you,
now you've been beaten up pretty badly before you could even hit back,
do you think that they care that one of them got hurt,
since they got to take out 5 of you then get away with it.
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Post by Teaos »

Can you honestly see them doing anything but sit on their arses and await the outcome?
Yeah I can see the rising up. I'm kinda suprised you'd think they would just sit there and let it happen.
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Post by Captain Seafort »

Here's the appropraite bit of the script from Unification:
PICARD
The moment those Vulcan ships
appear in the Neutral Zone, the
Enterprise will move to
intercept...

SELA
In that event, the Enterprise
will be given more important
matters to attend to. In the
meantime, Ambassador Spock will
be telling his people to welcome
the peace envoy. And when they do,
our forces will seize control
before anyone realizes what has
happened.


STAR TREK: "Unification" Pt. II - REV. 9/4/91 - ACT FIVE 41.

41 CONTINUED: (2)

PICARD
Can you possibly believe that
the Federation will not
immediately intervene?

SELA
Of course it will. And we're
fully prepared for it. But we'll
be there. Entrenched. And it
will be very difficult to get us
out once we are.
A new Vulcan
government will be formed that
will embrace their Romulan
cousins. Reunification will
become a fact of life.
Important bits highlighted. The Romulans intended to strike while everyone believed that they were a peace mission, and then entrench their positions.

Teaos, as I've alread said, given Vulcan pacifism and Federation collectivism I can easilly see the average Vulcan taking a "sit tight and wait for Starfleet" approach.
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Post by Teaos »

Vulcans aren't pacifists in the sense they will never so violence. They want to avoid it if possible but will fight when needed... home world being taken over is one of the situations you would fight for.
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Post by Thorin »

Captain Seafort wrote: The D-Day invasion force was far less than the full strength of the allied forces that were eventually built up on the continent. I doubt very much that Starfleet could concentrate such a large fleet as the one you suggest in less than a month, given that it took them several days to concentrate a few dozen ships at Wolf 359.
That wasn't my point. The point was that it wouldn't take many ships to out the Romulans from Vulcan. If they tried bringing in a new government that basically enslaved Vulcan to Romulus, do you think that would happen? Vulcans would follow them? Hell, they'd just build a big wall around the Romulan government building and not listen to them. They're a major part of the Federation. Can you imagine 3000 Romulans coming to earth in Starfleet freighters and then taking it over, even if a well respected admiral said they were coming in peace? It couldn't possibly happen. Starfleet would pour ever resource into making sure it wouldn't happen. The same would happen at Vulcan.
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Post by Sionnach Glic »

They want to avoid it if possible but will fight when needed...
Except they don't need to.
Think about it logically. An enemy force has taken your planet. Your entire civilian populace is completely unarmed, therefore any uprising would take massive casualties. However, in a few days a heavily armed strike force will get here and take out the enemy for you.
I think its safe to say which option the Vulcans would take. It is illogical to waste so many lives in a needless uprising.
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Post by Deepcrush »

I agree, the vulcans would wait until they could take the advantage.
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Post by Captain Seafort »

Thorin wrote:That wasn't my point. The point was that it wouldn't take many ships to out the Romulans from Vulcan. If they tried bringing in a new government that basically enslaved Vulcan to Romulus, do you think that would happen? Vulcans would follow them?
Plenty of Frenchmen followed Vichy.
Hell, they'd just build a big wall around the Romulan government building and not listen to them. They're a major part of the Federation. Can you imagine 3000 Romulans coming to earth in Starfleet freighters and then taking it over, even if a well respected admiral said they were coming in peace? It couldn't possibly happen. Starfleet would pour ever resource into making sure it wouldn't happen. The same would happen at Vulcan.
The situation between Vulcan and Romulus can't really be compared with that between Earth and Romulus. The Vulcans and Romulans are effectively the same species, they share the same history, albeit thousands of years ago. If the Romulans play their cards right I can see them getting a fair bit of support from Vulcan.
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Post by Deepcrush »

Never going to happen, vulcan would never stand down, i still dont believe that vulcan was really the main target. The romulans are big time trixters, i wouldn't doubt that whole thing was still just a bluff. 2000 troops, please that chump change in war!
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