Ground combat in Trek (2370s-2380s era)

[Monroe]

Deep, Seafort and Rochey are gonna be all over this like a rash on a hooker.

Bah I like to talk about ground too!

[Mikey]

Thanks for clarifying, Seafort. I had suspected that the "artillery" that the Rebs were using was next to useless for more reasons than just the armor of the AT-AT's. And I have no doubt that they would be outclassed by even moderately powerful starfighters.

[Aaron]

That should read "...for even REBEL heavy weapons to even *scratch it*."

The Rebel Alliance was, at the time, not the best-equipped group. In fact, that didn't really possess any anti-armor weaponry, did they?

Lest we forget AOTC, in which sveral AT-TE's were lost to rockets from the wheel droids.

[Mikey]

That should read "...for even REBEL heavy weapons to even *scratch it*."

The Rebel Alliance was, at the time, not the best-equipped group. In fact, that didn't really possess any anti-armor weaponry, did they?

Lest we forget AOTC, in which sveral AT-TE's were lost to rockets from the wheel droids.

OK... I don't remember seeing any of those wheel droids in the hands of the Rebel Alliance, though.

[Aaron]

OK... I don't remember seeing any of those wheel droids in the hands of the Rebel Alliance, though.

Oh indeed. I sort of screwed up my response. It should have been a general one in response to the "walkers are invincable" train of thought.

[RX-178]

Well, on the 'walkers are invincible' note, I picture the Cardassian walkers would be downright fragile. They'd have shields, just like shuttles do, but compared to ground combat vehicles of other empires, it's just more of the same trend. The walker would be to a Federation 'tank' as the Keldon is to a Galaxy, and a Hideki is to a Bird of Prey.

[Aaron]

Well, on the 'walkers are invincible' note, I picture the Cardassian walkers would be downright fragile. They'd have shields, just like shuttles do, but compared to ground combat vehicles of other empires, it's just more of the same trend. The walker would be to a Federation 'tank' as the Keldon is to a Galaxy, and a Hideki is to a Bird of Prey.

The Cardies are a fairly pragmatic people, why would they waste the resources on a walker that sucks when they can simply use the same amount and build a better tank?

[Mikey]

I understand where RX is trying to go from a design aesthetic, and he's right - the idea does fit in with Cardie architecture. I just think that it falls down a bit in the usefulness aspect, as well as R&D cost... the Union is NOT wealthy.

[Tsukiyumi]

Personally, I could see them using something with treads and heavy armor, maybe shielded, but nowhere near on par with any tank the Federation could create.

[RX-178]

I found my write-up on my concepts for Federation ground combat. It turns out I had saved it as a text file after all.





UFP-FMC United Federation of Planets Federation Marine Corps

1MOF 1st Marine Operational Force Camp Ermey, Kansas, Earth

SBMU-73811 ShipBorne Marine Unit, attached to NX-73811 Sovereign



Federation Marines are the elite war-fighting personnel of the United Federation of Planets, with capabilities including full-scale planetary invasion, embassy security, unconventional warfare operations, hostage rescue, and ship-boarding operations. SBMU (Shipborne Marine Unit) Marines are also typically used for away-team security in high risk environments.



Federation Marines are trained to an extent that equals any force currently known. The individual Marine is trained in basic fieldcraft and survival in multiple alien environments, unarmed combat, marksmanship, explosives handling, and basic extra-vehicular operations. Each Marine must also qualify in basic maintenance and operation on at least 4 non-Federation weapons of their choice, as well as a choice of either Bat'Leth, Katana (see the dress sword section), or Ushaan Tor techniques. Each Marine must either speak a second language, or learn one during basic training, from which they can choose Romulan, Klingon, Ferengi, Andorian, Tellarite, Cardassian, and Bajoran. The MOS (Method Of Service) most commonly associated with the FMC is the infantry role, which is more similar to 20th-early 21st century special forces. This includes training in orbital-free-fall insertion, boarding operations-transporter, boarding operations-extra vehicular insertion, planetary combat in multiple environments, and coordination with support elements. Other MOS include aerospace vehicle crews, ground vehicle crews, artillery gunners (both spaceborne/orbital and ground-based), and more famously, scout/sniper.



The standard weapon of the FMC is the TR-M2370 'Spike Driver'. The TR-M2370 consists of both a proprietary projectile-based weapon system, from which it gets its nickname, and a simple, and versatile phaser weapon, designed from the ground up rather than being based on a Starfleet weapon.

The projectile system operates using tractor beams to propel solid projectiles ('spikes') down the barrel at extremely high velocities. The barrel consists of a protective shroud surrounding magnetic rails, which further accurize the spike, which never actually comes in contact with the barrel as it is fired. To compensate for the extreme recoil involved in firing a solid spike at such high speeds, the stock of the weapon includes an inertial dampener, which reduces (but does not eliminate) felt recoil to an acceptable level. The weapon is fed from box magazines.

There are many different types of ammunition that can be fired from the TR-M2370, the most common of which being the TEID, or Tritanium Encased Irradiated Dilithium round. The highly irradiated crystals are placed in a tritanium spike, which unfolds fins after it is fired to further stabilize it in flight. The action of the fins unfolding also serves to expose the dilithium to the air around it. The tritanium enables the round to penetrate all known personal, and most vehicular armors, while the dilithium core creates severe radiation burns along the interior of the wound track. The other common round is an adaptive-material round, which recognizes whether it has struck a 'hard', or armored target, or a 'soft', or unarmored target. If it strikes a hard target, it maintains its integrity, enabling it to punch through heavy materials. If it strikes a soft target, the round disintegrates into many small shards, each one creating its own wound channel within the target.

The phaser component of the TR-M2370 system forgoes the precise adjustments capable with standard Starfleet phaser rifles, in favor of simplicity and reliability. The phaser has 3 settings: armored, unarmored, and shielded. The armored setting focuses the beam so that it delivers its energy to a single point, to quickly punch through personal and light vehicle armor. The unarmored setting allows energy to disperse from the beam throughout the target, vaporizing material around the hit zone. The shielded setting sets the weapon to fire in quick phaser pulses, much like the Defiant class' pulse phaser weapons, for maximum effect against shields. The weapon has no stun setting. Marines would use Starfleet phasers in situations that require one.

The TR-M2370 weapon has manually adjustable 'iron' sights built in, but comes standard with a multi-function electro-optical sight with a ballistic computer to calculate the path of the spike projectile for long range firing. The sight is linked to the Marine's helmet-mounted combat tricorder to identify target species, and weapon if armed, and automatically determine friend-or-foe based on presets done before entry into battle. Once a target is detected by the combat tricorder, both the scope's display, and the Marine's HUD will keep track of their position, even if they are concealed behind walls, barring electronic interference or jamming.




Every aspect of the Marine's standard equipment is designed to enhance the survivability, lethality, endurance, and versatility of the Marine. The basic item of dress is the MPCU (Multi-Purpose Combat Uniform). The MPCU is designed for comfort and ease of movement, as well as durability and resistance to the elements. It is composed of an electrochromatophoric material, with multiple pre-set camouflage patterns for various environments, as well as shipboard dress colors of dark blue with a white (enlisted), black (NCO), or red (officers) stripe at shoulder level, similar to the color patterns of starfleet uniforms, although the material and composition of the MPCU is very different. In combat, the MPCU is connected to a medical computer worn behind the shoulder on the outer PAAPS (see below) suit, or on the belt when worn without the PAAPS suit, controls being located on the left forearm. When wounds or injuries are detected, the MPCU reacts accordingly, constricting to apply pressure around a wound to slow bleeding or immobilize a broken limb, automatically applying or injecting various medical chemicals and drugs to keep the Marine in action, or at least sustain the Marine's life until they can receive proper medical attention.

Full battle dress for a Marine also includes the PAAPS (Personal Ablative Armor Protection System), which, as the name suggests, is a personal armor suit composed of ablative armor plates, which spread energy throughout the surface of the plate to reduce its effect. It also functions fully as an enclosed hostile-environment suit, and with the attachment of a thruster-equipped maneuvering 'backpack', also functions as an EVO suit. The material also incorporates an electrochromatophoric effect, to change its camouflage pattern for various environments, including a patterned black surface for orbital free-fall. With the electrochromatic system off, the suit defaults to a grey color, similar to starship hulls in general. The helmet of the PAAPS suit incorporates a force field faceplate backed by transparent aluminum in the event of field failure. The faceplate can be set to transparent, dark, or reflective for high-light situation or for psychological effect. On the right side of the helmet is a module for the 'combat tricorder' sensor array, as well as white and infrared light emitters with variable intensity settings. The combat tricorder detects and identifies life form readings amd weapons, comparing to presets and determining friend or foe, feeding the information to the helmet HUD, allowing the Marine to keep track of potential targets even if they are outside line of sight. The combat tricorder can also identify recent weapon strikes on surfaces so the Marine can recognize if he or she is approaching an area which has seen recent combat, to avoid or prepare for potential ambushes.

What is commonly seen as the most useful, and also the most 'nostalgic' survival tool of the Federation Marine is the FMC Field Knife. The blade is composed of duranium, incorporating a clip-point tip, a serrated saw-back, and a slight flare to the blade near the tip to give a more powerful chopping stroke for clearing folliage. The scabbard actually incorporates more technology than the blade itself, as it can unfold hooks in order to be used as a grapple when attached to the knife (a hole in the scabbard is specficially placed for attachment of scaling cables), as well as being able to unfold two large plates, one on each side, in order to be used as an entrenching tool (the scabbard can also be fixed to a simple, folding haft for better leverage for this role). The pommel of the knife has a small type-1 'cricket' phaser, normally kept with the emitter pointing directly back from the pommel. This position engages an automatic safety which renders the phaser unable to fire. To use the phaser, the emitter must be unlocked and turned to an angle between 45 and 90 degrees, and a manual safety disengaged. There is a forefinger trigger along the knife's grip, so that if the blade is held reversed in the hand, the phaser would be fired much as a usual pistol would be. This phaser is designed more to be a survival tool than a serious weapon, for heating rocks, or cutting through surfaces.

The standard sidearm of the Marine is a pulse phaser pistol, larger in size than the Starfleet Type 2 phaser. It uses a forefinger trigger rather than the Starfleet's usual thumb-trigger, after the determination was made that the movement of large muscles of the thumb was detrimental to accuracy. It is normally fitted with electro-optical sights, similar to the heavy phaser rifle, but folding 'iron' sights can be used in the event the optical sight is damaged, or otherwise fails.

A particularly notable weapon is the SLAVT ('Slav-Tee', or simply 'Slav'. Shoulder Launched Anti Vehicle Torpedo), a micro-torpedo launcher similar to those on the latest Starfleet shuttlecraft. It is phasing out the Starfleet Isomagnetic Disintegrator and Tetryon Pulse launchers that were previously in Marine inventories. The weapon is fed from 5-round detachable box magazines which are inserted near the rear of the weapon, behind the shoulder when it is firing position. The electro-optical sight is linked to sensors able to identify and lock the torpedoes onto either air vehicles, ground vehicles, and personnel targets. The weapon is also capable of locking the torpedos onto an area target, and firing the remainder of the magazine in quick succession to bombard the area. The weapon also has the capability to be mounted on a tripod at a high-angle, and set to be fired by remote from a forward observer, and when used in this manner can be seen as a more precise, and more capable improvement to the photon grenade mortar of the 2260s.

Unlike Starfleet, the Marines include a dress sword as part of official uniform. The FMC dress sword is ceremonial in nature, yet crafted to be fully capable of combat (versus Klingon Bat'Leths for example). They are based upon the Japanese Katana sword developed on Earth in the 15th century. The blade is composed of a folded tritanium edge around a core of duranium for flexibility. In dress uniform, the sword is worn on the left waist, pommel pointing forward, with the curve of the blade facing upwards. A second, shorter blade, based upon the smaller Wakizashi sword, can be worn optionally. Andorian Marines are allowed to replace the sword on their uniform with an Ushaan Tor.







(Note: Look up the Walther Redstorm Recon airgun, and you'll have a good idea on what the pulse phaser pistol looks like)

[Aaron]

So why not just give them a fragging chemically propelled rifle rather than your technobabble monstrosity? Simplicity is the key to military equipment.

[RX-178]

Velocity. Even in Trek, the chemical propulsion doesn't produce muzzle velocities beyond what we see in current-day weapons. Odo even described the wound as being the same as in his 20th century crime novels in that episode.


Also, modern day weapons are incredibly complex. Moving parts, chamber pressures, delayed actions to keep the cartridge case from tearing apart inside the chamber during extraction, specific ammunitions to go with each weapon, and specific categories within the ammunition choice. The first Beretta M9s in the US Army were failing within 3000 rounds, with the slide either cracking, or breaking in half completely, and sending the rear portion of the slide directly back into the firer. It turns out that the M9 design wasn't capable of handling the pressure from 9x19 NATO submachinegun ammunition. They required 9x19mm ammunition manufactured to lower propellant charges to function reliably.

Don't fool yourself by thinking that just because we understand how modern firearms function, that they are automatically more simple and reliable. I don't personally understand how tractor beams work, but they're certainly an established technology in Trek. I've never heard Picard order the use of a tractor beam with anything less than total confidence that the beam will function. To my knowledge, the Galaxy class also doesn't have giant grappling hooks to use in case the tractor beam fails.

In this design, a projectile is moved into battery, in line with the tractor emitter and the barrel, then fired by the tractor beam. The next round is moved into position to fire, and either fired automatically (with a delay to keep the recoil manageable), or held there until the trigger is pulled again. Few moving parts; no need to harness blowback, recoil, or gas pressure to prepare the next round to fire; no need to reinforce the chamber against the pressure of expanding propellant.

That sounds MORE simple to me than a modern day assault rifle.

[Aaron]

Velocity. Even in Trek, the chemical propulsion doesn't produce muzzle velocities beyond what we see in current-day weapons. Odo even described the wound as being the same as in his 20th century crime novels in that episode.

And? Why is more required?

Also, modern day weapons are incredibly complex. Moving parts, chamber pressures, delayed actions to keep the cartridge case from tearing apart inside the chamber during extraction, specific ammunitions to go with each weapon, and specific categories within the ammunition choice. The first Beretta M9s in the US Army were failing within 3000 rounds, with the slide either cracking, or breaking in half completely, and sending the rear portion of the slide directly back into the firer. It turns out that the M9 design wasn't capable of handling the pressure from 9x19 NATO submachinegun ammunition. They required 9x19mm ammunition manufactured to lower propellant charges to function reliably.

BS, the C-7 service rifle has eight moving parts. The rifle is reliable enough to work in any enviroment on Earth as long as it is properly maintained. In fact the only jam I ever witnessed was because some half-wit put the round in the mag backwards. The M9 was a result of poor manufactoring standards. The Browing Hi-Power for example didn't have that problem.

Don't fool yourself by thinking that just because we understand how modern firearms function, that they are automatically more simple and reliable. I don't personally understand how tractor beams work, but they're certainly an established technology in Trek. I've never heard Picard order the use of a tractor beam with anything less than total confidence that the beam will function. To my knowledge, the Galaxy class also doesn't have giant grappling hooks to use in case the tractor beam fails.

Prove that a rifle using a tractor beam is more reliable, has greater stopping power and can be of equivilant weight to a modrn rifle.

In this design, a projectile is moved into battery, in line with the tractor emitter and the barrel, then fired by the tractor beam. The next round is moved into position to fire, and either fired automatically (with a delay to keep the recoil manageable), or held there until the trigger is pulled again. Few moving parts; no need to harness blowback, recoil, or gas pressure to prepare the next round to fire; no need to reinforce the chamber against the pressure of expanding propellant.

That sounds MORE simple to me than a modern day assault rifle.

Until you factor in the heavy power supply,an interntial compensator failure (more weight by the way) and the rails ablating.

What you've got here is pure fanwank. And the burden of proof is on you to prove it's feasable.

BTW, a little less verbage would be nice.

[sunnyside]

First, did Rochey just ask someone to prove something about a tractor beam powered rifle?

Anyway the ground combat thing has come up a bunch. My opinion is that with the Federations policies it would be a rare situation where they would be engaged in ground combat. If a planet is having the kind of rebellion stuff that really calls for it than, rather like with the Bajoran sutff, the Federation isn't going to be involved. They also aren't interested in conquering planets. And as far as defending a planet goes that ultimately comes down to the navy.

They could have used some special forces though for stuff like their defence of the communications tower or whatever they were fighting over.

But walkers are a bit of a more novel discussion here.

First off I consider an aspect of walkers to be their all terrain capability. I.e for stuff like



Now a flying vehicle could avoid that. But I'd contend(as we did in a different thread), that once your at the point where you can use that you're already at the point where you wouldn't be using a tradional "tank" as such but a shuttle. Use of a tank requires that you're trying to adapt for operation in anti Treknology fields or somesuch.

As so the abiltiy to stride over things and the use of arms to pull or climb can be key.

Additionally tracks are highly vulnerable. I don't see what someone would consider it harder to break a link than to break a whole leg. However in a walker the systems are dispersed. If I fire at the tread of a tank I'm also fireing at the engine, gunner, the whole thing.

Also in the view of modern warfare you're also much further from IEDs and mines. Yeah they might take out a leg. But at least the bulk of the vehicle is intact.

Also on that note the military is working on walkers. Not like battlemechs but smaller ones for accompanying infantry in rugged environments such as a hilly woods where other vehicles couldn't get.

[Mikey]

Couple of questions. Why ablative armor? For personal armor, I think it's a bad idea - ablative armor by it's nature goes away when serving its purpose, and a person has limits on how much weight he can walk around in, much less perform combat operations in. Ergo, personal ablative armor would be limited to a relatively short duration of usefulness - probably much shorter than a ground-pounding campaign.

Secondly, why a phaser in the knife? It seems you've already provided the troops with pistols as secondary sidearms - a convention certainly not found in modern militaries aside from VERY special forces like the SAS.

And as far as the other bladed weapons: the ushaan-tor seems to a weapon of tradition and honor, and not well-suited for battlefield use. As far as swords, I think we can assume that the "Marines" (a misnomer in this case, I think) would have more advanced manufacturing techniques than medieval Japan - a double-edged, straight type of sword would offer more flexibility of usage. These aren't cavalrymen, after all. If armor penetration is what you're after, a kukri or falchion-style sword would serve better.