Cardassian Ship Technology

[Graham Kennedy]

Hutet Class

[Atekimogus]

The Cardies wouldn't last too long in space if it came to an all-out war between them and the UFP, but the Feds would find it all but impossible to root them out of any ground positions. While they could hit any Cardassian formations in open ground from space, they can hardly do the same for Cardassian forces located in the middle of a densley populated city. They'd have to deploy their own ground forces to combat them. Therefore, it would take a long time for the Glorious Redshirt Corps to actualy bring the war to an end.

Space superiority is all that matters imho. This means no support for their troops on the ground, this means you can use transporters to just beam whereever you want etc. And if you do not want to kill all cardassians and take away their planets to populize them with humans/vulcans etc. destroying their interstellar capability is more than enough to win a war. Why even land troops onto a planet who is of no threat to your space-forces?

Now let us switch to a low key scenario where ground forces are involved because the place doesn't even rate a starship......well it seems even primitive bajorans with nothing more than a phaser-rifle and guts were able to dislodge the cardassians......never heard that the cardassians are especially great ground soldiers.

Also never underestimate a redshirt-rush. (Ever heard the rumour that jem'hadar is red'shirt in founderish and that the modern jem'hadar are merly red'shirt mkII? )

[Aaron]

Hutet Class

Wow...that is ugly. Yet strangely appealing.

[Sionnach Glic]

Demiurg rip-off!

Space superiority is all that matters imho.

While space superiority is a massive advantage and decides who wins the war in the end, that does not mean ground combat is irrelevant. If your objective is to take a planet without turning every village on it into a crater, ground combat is necessary. If you lack the capability to defeat the enemy on the ground, then you can do nothing but organise some sort of ceasefire, as it turns into a massive stalemate.

This means no support for their troops on the ground,

That really depends on the planet. If it's a shitty little dirtball like AR-558, the troops are screwed if they have no means of reinforcement or supply, as they can be starved out easily. If it's a populated and civilised planet with anything more than a few million inhabitants, they will very likely have their own food sources on the planet itself, along with most things an army would need.

means you can use transporters to just beam whereever you want etc.

Transporters are ridiculously easy to block. The Cardies would have to be incredibly stupid not to set up one of the many many blocking systems we've seen before when a UFP warship drops into orbit.

And if you do not want to kill all cardassians and take away their planets to populize them with humans/vulcans etc. destroying their interstellar capability is more than enough to win a war.

Depends on the type of war, doesn't it? If your objective is to remove a government from power, or to utterly cripple your enemy, or to sieze territory, or to capture something on the surface, ground combat is required.

Why even land troops onto a planet who is of no threat to your space-forces?

See above.

Now let us switch to a low key scenario where ground forces are involved because the place doesn't even rate a starship......well it seems even primitive bajorans with nothing more than a phaser-rifle and guts were able to dislodge the cardassians......never heard that the cardassians are especially great ground soldiers.

And the IRA armed with shitty rifles and pistols were able to kick out the greatest empire in the world at that time. Does that mean they'd have been able to invade Wales? No, of course not. Why? Because the two types of warfare are completely different.

Guerilla combat =/= conventional warfare. The UFP would never stoop to guerilla tactics. They'd fight a more conventional war. Given that the Cardies have mechanised infantry, whereas all the UFP has is brightly coloured idealists with terribly designed guns, the Cardassians are at a serious advantage.

Also never underestimate a redshirt-rush. (Ever heard the rumour that jem'hadar is red'shirt in founderish and that the modern jem'hadar are merly red'shirt mkII? )

The infantry-charge tactics died in WWI with the advent of the machine gun.

[Deepcrush]

Space superiority is all that matters imho. This means no support for their troops on the ground, this means you can use transporters to just beam whereever you want etc. And if you do not want to kill all cardassians and take away their planets to populize them with humans/vulcans etc. destroying their interstellar capability is more than enough to win a war. Why even land troops onto a planet who is of no threat to your space-forces?

WRONG! No war can be won without troops on the ground. There are simple ways to block transporters. Simple shields and or planet based defenses. To say that you can win the war without ever touching dirt is just silly. Try and find a war today that you can win without using troops... tough luck though as you won't find one. Having air superiority is a great thing. You can stop Cardis fleets from bringing fresh troops or deploying on more worlds. In the end unless you want watch whole populations getting murdered you have to have manpower on the ground.

Now let us switch to a low key scenario where ground forces are involved because the place doesn't even rate a starship......well it seems even primitive bajorans with nothing more than a phaser-rifle and guts were able to dislodge the cardassians......never heard that the cardassians are especially great ground soldiers.

First off, if you're going to a planet other then your own. You need a starship. Second, the Bajorans didn't dislodge anyone. They were terrorists. They made the price of control over Bajor more costly then the profits the CU was bringing in. Still though in the end the CU left Bajor a wreck.

Also never underestimate a redshirt-rush. (Ever heard the rumour that jem'hadar is red'shirt in founderish and that the modern jem'hadar are merly red'shirt mkII? )

While it wouldn't shock me to see the Jem'hadar as upgraded redshirts (as almost anything would be an upgrade for them). Mass troop rushes don't win wars. It can be used to beat down on an enemy who isn't ready for an assult. It is useless when you have a well dug in and prepared enemy. Which would be the only kind if you use your tactic of sit and wait and pray that the CU forces are nice to whatever people they invade. Good luck.

[Graham Kennedy]

And the IRA armed with shitty rifles and pistols were able to kick out the greatest empire in the world at that time. Does that mean they'd have been able to invade Wales? No, of course not. Why? Because the two types of warfare are completely different.

Um, they were? When did this happen?

[Atekimogus]

WRONG! No war can be won without troops on the ground. There are simple ways to block transporters. Simple shields and or planet based defenses. To say that you can win the war without ever touching dirt is just silly. Try and find a war today that you can win without using troops... tough luck though as you won't find one. Having air superiority is a great thing. You can stop Cardis fleets from bringing fresh troops or deploying on more worlds. In the end unless you want watch whole populations getting murdered you have to have manpower on the ground.

Try and find a war today??? Hello? We ARE talking star trek here right? The federation has multiple options when laying siege to a planet.

First they could just stun the whole planet with phasers. Happened in TOS, no reason why this should not happen again. Second, just beam the bad guys into your brig. OH NOES someone blocked the transporter. Well on average it takes our heroes 1-5min to overcome a transporter blockade but since we are talking average joe redshirt here lets give them a week. The Feds are the brainguys remember. Option Third, those stupid Feds didn't manage to overcame the transporter blockade. Well since we have not seen planetwide blockades or shields it is safe to assume that they are only in place in vital installations. Now how long do you think they need to destroy those blockades or shields? A Week? Two?

Sorry to say that but this is not warhammer 40k, where the pinacle of accuracy of orbital bombardment is choosing the right continent, this is star trek with 100% accurate phasers, sensors able to spot single lifeforms from orbit, shuttle-size ships having transporters etc. . Exactly because of this always when you see some conventional ground combat its usual due to same magic dampening field bulls...... which is used so often you have to wonder if there is a planet left where normal technology works.

Don't get me wrong, I too enjoyed some of the ground combat episodes of DS9 but if you think about it they were just ridiculous. Considering the technological possibilities you will of course have ground combat, but a vastly different one as ww2 or modern warfare.

Chances are that if you have complete space superiority you are laying siege to a planet like in good old mediaval times. You give them an ulitmatum to surrender while working to overcame shields, jamming fields etc and then they will probably surrender before it becomes to costly. Basically like taking a space station. Consider the retake of DS9. No last stand of the dominion, 200 vessel on they way...well time to pack the suitcase, no need for pointless infantry-fighting.

Also never underestimate a redshirt-rush. (Ever heard the rumour that jem'hadar is red'shirt in founderish and that the modern jem'hadar are merly red'shirt mkII? )

While it wouldn't shock me to see the Jem'hadar as upgraded redshirts (as almost anything would be an upgrade for them). Mass troop rushes don't win wars. It can be used to beat down on an enemy who isn't ready for an assult. It is useless when you have a well dug in and prepared enemy. Which would be the only kind if you use your tactic of sit and wait and pray that the CU forces are nice to whatever people they invade. Good luck.

Aehm...I thought the was a giveaway that this comment was not serious and more sacastic because of the obviously favoured tactic of the jem'hadar just rushing at the enemy.........I will add [sarcasm] tags in the future.

[Deepcrush]

Try and find a war today??? Hello? We ARE talking star trek here right? The federation has multiple options when laying siege to a planet.

What a shock as we have multiple ways of laying siege today! Ground combat is still ON THE GROUND. So be it now or a thousand years from now ground combat will still be on the GROUND. See how this works?

First they could just stun the whole planet with phasers. Happened in TOS, no reason why this should not happen again. Second, just beam the bad guys into your brig. OH NOES someone blocked the transporter. Well on average it takes our heroes 1-5min to overcome a transporter blockade but since we are talking average joe redshirt here lets give them a week. The Feds are the brainguys remember. Option Third, those stupid Feds didn't manage to overcame the transporter blockade. Well since we have not seen planetwide blockades or shields it is safe to assume that they are only in place in vital installations. Now how long do you think they need to destroy those blockades or shields? A Week? Two?

First, you not only repeated points already made twice but answered them over again. Transporters, STUN phasers (never seen in TNG) or bypassing shields (only done by heros and not the average redshirt) all fail when placed against a signal jammer let alone a planet based shield system.

As to only being in vital installations. DUH! Seeing how thats what they want to protect and thats what you have to take out to gain victory. A city with millions of people under the control of your enemy. Sure, level the city to take out a division of them for a million of your own people. You're really smart... for a redshirt.

Sorry to say that but this is not warhammer 40k,

Really, because so many people have been talking about 40k on this thread and not the UFP vs CU idea...

where the pinacle of accuracy of orbital bombardment is choosing the right continent,

Guess you know next to nothing about 40k fleet fluff.

this is star trek with 100% accurate phasers, sensors able to spot single lifeforms from orbit, shuttle-size ships having transporters etc. .

Again, not helpful when its BLOCKED by something.

Exactly because of this always when you see some conventional ground combat its usual due to same magic dampening field bulls...... which is used so often you have to wonder if there is a planet left where normal technology works.

Wow, so you made this huge cry fest and ended up speaking against yourself. Thats very clever. Next, talk about super whales. The fact is that often enough we have places where energy weapons, scanners and comms don't even work. Also, what is NORMAL technology? Seeing how every race has their own. What do you count to being normal?

[Atekimogus]

[What a shock as we have multiple ways of laying siege today! Ground combat is still ON THE GROUND. So be it now or a thousand years from now ground combat will still be on the GROUND. See how this works?

So the ground combat of the ancient egypts was the same as the ground combat the ancient romans practiced was the same as the ground combat in medieval times was the same ground combat of the renaissance was the same ground combat during Napoleon was the same ground combat etc etc. All were on the ground. All were vastly differend. See how this works?
I never said there would be absolutley NO ground combat, I said the need and the style of it would greatly change. Give me the choice of complete space superiority vs complete ground superiority I happily would choose sitting in orbit.

First, you not only repeated points already made twice but answered them over again. Transporters, STUN phasers (never seen in TNG) or bypassing shields (only done by heros and not the average redshirt) all fail when placed against a signal jammer let alone a planet based shield system.

Well that happens if you talk technobabble. You say I got jammed. I say I find a workaround. We both surley have episodes were both had happen, now who is right? (During the siege of ar5894something some non hero noone-chief with help from ezri dax managed to find a workaround for subspace mines and even used them against the enemy. Let us be serious, our heroes are often average at best)

[As to only being in vital installations. DUH! Seeing how thats what they want to protect and thats what you have to take out to gain victory. A city with millions of people under the control of your enemy. Sure, level the city to take out a division of them for a million of your own people. You're really smart... for a redshirt.

So, the enemy hides in the city. Cut the power supply and suddenly all those fancy jamming devices will sooner or later quit working. If you use a bit of imagination you can come up with multiple scenario where you won't need legions of troops.

Furthermore I have nothing against arguments rolling back and forth but seeing that I did not offend you in any way (and if so I apologize) I would appreciate if you return the favour. No need to get emotional when debating scifi, now .

Really, because so many people have been talking about 40k on this thread and not the UFP vs CU idea...

I admit I was unclear. What I meant was that for some reason in the wh40k universe the only way to capture a planet seems to be complete annihilation or sending millions of troops onto the surface. My point was that with star trek technology you have other more sophisticated options.

[Guess you know next to nothing about 40k fleet fluff.

Guess again. But I stand ready to be correct if you show me proof that - for example - a battle barge is able of the same pinpoint accuracy as the phasers of the TOS Enterprise?

Again, not helpful when its BLOCKED by something.

The Sona found a workaround, but the same is JUST NOT POSSIBLE for the UFP? Something is blocking some other something than all you need to do is cancel out the first something. Then you are able to use your other something=success! Is it really beyond the federation to do such a thing? Just because they do not invade every planet they are able to does not mean that they are unable to do so.

Wow, so you made this huge cry fest and ended up speaking against yourself. Thats very clever. Next, talk about super whales. The fact is that often enough we have places where energy weapons, scanners and comms don't even work. Also, what is NORMAL technology? Seeing how every race has their own. What do you count to being normal?

First lets talk about super whales. I like them, very usefull and even the japanese like them because they are great for sushi. Second, normal technology in trek terms is for me things we have seen in almost every episode in every incarnation. Transporters, phasers etc you name them. And third, I gladly accept that I am wrong if you point out serious flaws in my argumentation but is it really necessary to be offensive? I admit this paragraph was mainly a rant (but far from a huge cryfest.......please ) but at least I try to remain unemotional.

[Deepcrush]

So the ground combat of the ancient egypts was the same as the ground combat the ancient romans practiced was the same as the ground combat in medieval times was the same ground combat of the renaissance was the same ground combat during Napoleon was the same ground combat etc etc. All were on the ground. All were vastly differend. See how this works?

See how this works? Cute...

A, not a shock you missed the point. B, the change in the time frame adds new tactics for the same job. Taking the enemy strong points. Your whole point here is meaningless.

I never said there would be absolutley NO ground combat, I said the need and the style of it would greatly change. Give me the choice of complete space superiority vs complete ground superiority I happily would choose sitting in orbit.

This isn't a choice. Which shows what little you know about real combat. In war you must gain superiority both on land and in the air. Having one while your enemy has the other means you have a never ending war.

Well that happens if you talk technobabble. You say I got jammed. I say I find a workaround. We both surley have episodes were both had happen, now who is right? (During the siege of ar5894something some non hero noone-chief with help from ezri dax managed to find a workaround for subspace mines and even used them against the enemy. Let us be serious, our heroes are often average at best)

Amazing how it took the arrival of our heros for this to happen. Other hand says that there is a difference between a few mines floating dumb and a live enemy working to bypass your bypass. The thought that you should just try to wait out someone is folly at best. Where it may work on a few rare times, this means now your enemy knows you are unwilling to commit to an assult and now can take as much time as they want to dig in.

So, the enemy hides in the city. Cut the power supply and suddenly all those fancy jamming devices will sooner or later quit working. If you use a bit of imagination you can come up with multiple scenario where you won't need legions of troops.

Though this most likely went over your head. The power supply would be (unless under starfleet control) defended. As would food stores, weapons and living spaces for the defenders. Imagination doesn't work if it involves hoping your enemy doesn't have any troops with them. Jamming device(s) being plural can be replaced and or repaired. How long do you plan on waiting for them to break down?

Furthermore I have nothing against arguments rolling back and forth but seeing that I did not offend you in any way (and if so I apologize) I would appreciate if you return the favour. No need to get emotional when debating scifi, now .

Ehh, you annoyed me so things fall where they fall. You're points have already been answered and defeated. By the way, I'm not so emotional as I just say whats on my mind. You'll get to know this as you're around longer. I'm the local Commissar since most people are far to passive and soft for the job and I take it as a point of pride.

I admit I was unclear. What I meant was that for some reason in the wh40k universe the only way to capture a planet seems to be complete annihilation or sending millions of troops onto the surface. My point was that with star trek technology you have other more sophisticated options.

Well, if thats your thought... One, no one here said we should use annihilation or millions of ground troops per planet. Second, speaking on the tech between the two is falling to a VS debate and isn't allowed here. Both have things over the other. But, seeing how we're only talking about ST. Everything about 40k is meaningless for out debate. Sophisticated options still require people and in the end don't win wars. If they did then the US wouldn't need troops anywhere in the world as the whole of Earth would have to do as we say... Let me know when that happens but until such time wars can only be won on the ground by men/women with boots under foot and weapon in hand.

Guess again. But I stand ready to be correct if you show me proof that - for example - a battle barge is able of the same pinpoint accuracy as the phasers of the TOS Enterprise?

Anti-ship weapons in 40k can track and be used against enemy fighters. Whole SM squads can be teleported to a planet or onto a ship across a system within a meter of their target. Imperial Carrier Battleships use fighters and bombers to knock out local defenses (both ground and space) before landing ground troops. I will not compare TOS and 40k as that is VS and not allowed on DITL. However, when coming down to ground combat tactics. The needs of war are the same in both 40k and ST and SW and Dune and etc... Without people on the ground, there is no victory.

The Sona found a workaround, but the same is JUST NOT POSSIBLE for the UFP? Something is blocking some other something than all you need to do is cancel out the first something. Then you are able to use your other something=success! Is it really beyond the federation to do such a thing? Just because they do not invade every planet they are able to does not mean that they are unable to do so.

Now you're being a dipshit. You are using an example of hillpeople to say that a defended modern city (ST modern) would fail in the same way. When it came to the Sona, they had to send GROUND FORCES to bypass what a half dozen people were carrying on their backs. The combined power of three Sona ships and they still ended up on foot. See the trend?

First lets talk about super whales. I like them, very usefull and even the japanese like them because they are great for sushi.

Sorry, you just remind me a great deal of someone we've booted twice for stupidity. He had a fetish for super powered whales, among other things.

Second, normal technology in trek terms is for me things we have seen in almost every episode in every incarnation. Transporters, phasers etc you name them.

Tech changes on every planet and every ship. There is no NORMAL tech. Its what each group has on hand at the time. Laying victory on a hope that you might have better tech then someone in a fortified position and hope that they might run out of food if they don't have supplies or replacements of their own and a hope that help doesn't come for them and hope that they don't butcher your people while you wait and hope that they don't build surface to air(space) weapons in said city and start attacking your ship(s) and hope that you can play nice the whole time...? For whatever reason it just doesn't seem right. I can also think of more then one person that would kick my ass for even pretending that just such a tactic would be worth a bowl of rice.

And third, I gladly accept that I am wrong if you point out serious flaws in my argumentation but is it really necessary to be offensive? I admit this paragraph was mainly a rant (but far from a huge cryfest.......please ) but at least I try to remain unemotional.

Again I say ehh... you did something stupid several times in a row even after being told such. So, I rant, insult, put down or whatever else you call it and I'm fine with that. 8)

[Atekimogus]

See how this works? Cute...

A, not a shock you missed the point. B, the change in the time frame adds new tactics for the same job. Taking the enemy strong points. Your whole point here is meaningless.

My point beeing that tactics change due to technology and that ground combat tactics are also likley to be different from todays warfare? O....K!

I never said there would be absolutley NO ground combat, I said the need and the style of it would greatly change. Give me the choice of complete space superiority vs complete ground superiority I happily would choose sitting in orbit.

This isn't a choice. Which shows what little you know about real combat. In war you must gain superiority both on land and in the air. Having one while your enemy has the other means you have a never ending war.

In space I have the ultimate choice of blasting the planet into a lifeless rock. Now we know the UFP would never do that (they would use Genesis ) but still it is an option you sitting on the ground do not have. In space I have the option to ferry troops to your planet from the whole of the UFP, you sitting on your planet are limited to your local ressources. Yes I very much would prefer such a situation because it is superior to the ground forces to the point were resistance is almost suicide and the best course of action would be surrendering and hoping a relieve force from space arrives.

So, the enemy hides in the city. Cut the power supply and suddenly all those fancy jamming devices will sooner or later quit working. If you use a bit of imagination you can come up with multiple scenario where you won't need legions of troops.

Though this most likely went over your head. The power supply would be (unless under starfleet control) defended. As would food stores, weapons and living spaces for the defenders. Imagination doesn't work if it involves hoping your enemy doesn't have any troops with them. Jamming device(s) being plural can be replaced and or repaired. How long do you plan on waiting for them to break down?

Of course they are defended. But the more heavily defended they are and the more troops you accumulate for defense the more suspectible do they become to orbital bombardment. Considering the accuracy of starfleet phaser (or energy weapons in star trek on the whole) I would think there is an upper limit on how well defended those things can be before some Admiral in Orbit decides that collateral damage is acceptable, blast away.
The only difficulty would be in densly populated areas with the defenders using the local population as meat shields then, yes I agree with you that you need to go down in force but the deactivation of those devices preventing you from beaming etc would still be a main priority.

Ehh, you annoyed me so things fall where they fall. You're points have already been answered and defeated. By the way, I'm not so emotional as I just say whats on my mind. You'll get to know this as you're around longer. I'm the local Commissar since most people are far to passive and soft for the job and I take it as a point of pride.

I understand, though to be fair my argument was with Rochey who was of the opinion that the CU had an advantage over the UFP in terms of ground combat - therefore the UFP made overtures to peace - while I was of the opinion that space superiority would be a primary goal and that I do not see how the CU is better in ground combat. Therefore you more or less have choosen to be annoyed at me but thats ok. If people who are not saying their mind at all times are passive and soft for you or just civilised and polite is also a matter of opinion and I fear we must agree to disagree on this point.

Sophisticated options still require people and in the end don't win wars. If they did then the US wouldn't need troops anywhere in the world as the whole of Earth would have to do as we say... Let me know when that happens but until such time wars can only be won on the ground by men/women with boots under foot and weapon in hand.

Sigh, I fear I was again unclear. The whole argument stems from my viewpoint that space superiority is far more important because without a ship in orbit you cannot even begin to send troops to a planet. I think I wrote that "space superiority is all that matters", that is probably a bit exaggerated but to the point. And if the planet you "liberate" from enemy space forces, shipyards etc has nothing worth whatsoever on the surface aside from the local cardassian population and they have no interstellar capability left on the planet, why should you conquer them?

I will not compare TOS and 40k as that is VS and not allowed on DITL.

I apologize, I was not aware of that I will therefore stop commenting it.

Now you're being a dipshit. You are using an example of hillpeople to say that a defended modern city (ST modern) would fail in the same way. When it came to the Sona, they had to send GROUND FORCES to bypass what a half dozen people were carrying on their backs. The combined power of three Sona ships and they still ended up on foot. See the trend?

But what could the Baku do appart from delaying the inevitable? If you destroy the whole interstellar capability of your enemy and then jump right at the jugular - eg Cardassia Prime - this should be sufficent to win the war. There is no need to brutally conquer each and every planet in the CU. I stand by my point that space superiority seems to be the most important factor in star trek wars.

First lets talk about super whales. I like them, very usefull and even the japanese like them because they are great for sushi.

Sorry, you just remind me a great deal of someone we've booted twice for stupidity. He had a fetish for super powered whales, among other things.

To be honest, I did not know what the heck you were talking about whales and answered accordingly. What is a super powered whale? I do not know and I am not really interested, I put it down as something only used to offend me.

Again I say ehh... you did something stupid several times in a row even after being told such. So, I rant, insult, put down or whatever else you call it and I'm fine with that.

I think we had a difference of opinion but if you think that it is only my beeing stupid and such it is also ok, it is not my job to convince you of my point of view.

[Aaron]

Oh Athiesmo I hate this topic.

My point beeing that tactics change due to technology and that ground combat tactics are also likley to be different from todays warfare? O....K!

Can you prove that infantry tactics are going to change substantialy thanks to Trek technology. Afterall they haven't in around 300 years and Trek is almost exculsively light infantry.

In space I have the ultimate choice of blasting the planet into a lifeless rock. Now we know the UFP would never do that (they would use Genesis ) but still it is an option you sitting on the ground do not have. In space I have the option to ferry troops to your planet from the whole of the UFP, you sitting on your planet are limited to your local ressources. Yes I very much would prefer such a situation because it is superior to the ground forces to the point were resistance is almost suicide and the best course of action would be surrendering and hoping a relieve force from space arrives.

A defending force always has the advantage and you can likely expect up to 7 losses for every defender you kill. So those Romulans in Unification could be expected to take the lives of 14,000 Federation soldiers. That is a lot of men considering what we've seen of Trek ground actions.

Of course they are defended. But the more heavily defended they are and the more troops you accumulate for defense the more suspectible do they become to orbital bombardment. Considering the accuracy of starfleet phaser (or energy weapons in star trek on the whole) I would think there is an upper limit on how well defended those things can be before some Admiral in Orbit decides that collateral damage is acceptable, blast away.
The only difficulty would be in densly populated areas with the defenders using the local population as meat shields then, yes I agree with you that you need to go down in force but the deactivation of those devices preventing you from beaming etc would still be a main priority.

Transporters have been seen to be blocked by any number of random devices,how do you propose to locate these? How do you propose to cut the power to them? Armies will often piggyback of the civvie grid but it's just as likely that they brought generators with them or have stolen civvie ones.

Sigh, I fear I was again unclear. The whole argument stems from my viewpoint that space superiority is far more important because without a ship in orbit you cannot even begin to send troops to a planet. I think I wrote that "space superiority is all that matters", that is probably a bit exaggerated but to the point. And if the planet you "liberate" from enemy space forces, shipyards etc has nothing worth whatsoever on the surface aside from the local cardassian population and they have no interstellar capability left on the planet, why should you conquer them?

Why did the Dominion invade Betazeid, a planet with no apparent use other than to breed dimwitted woman? Morale, it was a demoralising blow to the Federation.

I apologize, I was not aware of that I will therefore stop commenting it.

If you wish to discuss the military practices of WH40K, start a thread. I will be more than happy to go over it with you.

But what could the Baku do appart from delaying the inevitable? If you destroy the whole interstellar capability of your enemy and then jump right at the jugular - eg Cardassia Prime - this should be sufficent to win the war. There is no need to brutally conquer each and every planet in the CU. I stand by my point that space superiority seems to be the most important factor in star trek wars.

Of course space superiority is the most important thing to acquire in a war in the Trek universe, that is bloody obvious. However we know that ships can be intercepted or pulled out of warp and blockades can be run. The idea at the end was to totally eliminate Dominion resistance to prevent a resurgence and likely a costly and protracted insurgency.

I think we had a difference of opinion but if you think that it is only my beeing stupid and such it is also ok, it is not my job to convince you of my point of view.

I think you'll find that Deepcrush has little patience for what he percieves to be stupid and like me is probably tired of having to explain basic military matters to folks.

[Atekimogus]

Can you prove that infantry tactics are going to change substantialy thanks to Trek technology. Afterall they haven't in around 300 years and Trek is almost exculsively light infantry.

Do you mean they have not changed from a 24th century point of view or from a present pov? Because I would say tactics changed a lot during the last 300 years. But to answer you, no I can not prove that tactics are going to change in star trek, how could I since it does not exist and is purley fiction?
I can only speculate how technologies like transporters, phasers, force fields, space ships etc will influence tactics. And since it is only speculation, one speculation is pretty much as good as another but it is nevertheless fun talking about it.......or so I thought .

A defending force always has the advantage and you can likely expect up to 7 losses for every defender you kill. So those Romulans in Unification could be expected to take the lives of 14,000 Federation soldiers. That is a lot of men considering what we've seen of Trek ground actions.

True, but a rather small force nevertheless even by todays standards. And we are only one planet divided into different nations. Considering 150members+ it does seem like a rather small task force.

Transporters have been seen to be blocked by any number of random devices,how do you propose to locate these? How do you propose to cut the power to them? Armies will often piggyback of the civvie grid but it's just as likely that they brought generators with them or have stolen civvie ones.

The same argument is going back and forth. Sure there were instances where you could not use the transporter but on the whole and most of the time they seem to work quite well. But even with the local strongpoints having such jammers transporters will still be a great asset to the flexibility of your troops.

Why did the Dominion invade Betazeid, a planet with no apparent use other than to breed dimwitted woman? Morale, it was a demoralising blow to the Federation.

And why could the capture Betazed? Because the 2nd fleet iirc screwed up and was out of place so all they had to do was mop up a bit of ancient orbital defence and they had space superiority.

Of course space superiority is the most important thing to acquire in a war in the Trek universe, that is bloody obvious. However we know that ships can be intercepted or pulled out of warp and blockades can be run. The idea at the end was to totally eliminate Dominion resistance to prevent a resurgence and likely a costly and protracted insurgency.

Well that was more or less my point for which I got jumped at..... !

I think you'll find that Deepcrush has little patience for what he percieves to be stupid and like me is probably tired of having to explain basic military matters to folks.

That may be the case and is also understandable to a degree but I did not force him at gunpoint to reply.

[Aaron]

Do you mean they have not changed from a 24th century point of view or from a present pov? Because I would say tactics changed a lot during the last 300 years. But to answer you, no I can not prove that tactics are going to change in star trek, how could I since it does not exist and is purley fiction?
I can only speculate how technologies like transporters, phasers, force fields, space ships etc will influence tactics. And since it is only speculation, one speculation is pretty much as good as another but it is nevertheless fun talking about it.......or so I thought .

From the present. Basic infantry tactics have not changed much since the days of the British Rifle Regiments in the Penisula Wars. But seeing as phasers function quite similiar to firearms in the show (with several disadvantages actually) and transporters/force fields are easily disabled or negated and starships are hardly used to there full potential I'm not seeing much of a difference here.

True, but a rather small force nevertheless even by todays standards. And we are only one planet divided into different nations. Considering 150members+ it does seem like a rather small task force.

Yes it is a small force but where are the quotes or visual evidence proving the contrary. A nation the size of the Federation should be able to field armies in the hundreds of thousands even millions but we consistantly see things low-balled, often drastically.

The same argument is going back and forth. Sure there were instances where you could not use the transporter but on the whole and most of the time they seem to work quite well. But even with the local strongpoints having such jammers transporters will still be a great asset to the flexibility of your troops.

Sure you might be able to save on walking time, given the lack of actual ground transport but transporters aren't gonna go in that building and clear it for you.

And why could the capture Betazed? Because the 2nd fleet iirc screwed up and was out of place so all they had to do was mop up a bit of ancient orbital defence and they had space superiority.

And what's your point? That they were caught out of place due to bad planning? That was never in dispute.

Well that was more or less my point for which I got jumped at..... !

You're going to find that a great many people on this forum and around the tubes take this topic quite seriously.

That may be the case and is also understandable to a degree but I did not force him at gunpoint to reply.

It's kind of like waving a blanket at a bull.

[Kevsha]

This may have been brought up before, but what about the Hutet from Dominion wars?