Fighter or Fodder?

[Deepcrush]

O'Brian was arrested by the cardis for selling PT's, Ro Laren's ship had PT's and maquis broke off because they ran out of PTs (makes me think they couldn't carry to many of them hahahahaha!) but anyway, If they were MPT's then it would have been stated. They had type VIII phasers, which seems weird but not impossible. You can put what ever type of phaser you want on to a fighter, it just won't work very well. But i doubt the early maquis would have known anything about that. As time went on, they stopped looking for phasers and just focused on PTs.

[Captain Seafort]

O'Brian was arrested by the cardis for selling PT's, Ro Laren's ship had PT's and maquis broke off because they ran out of PTs (makes me think they couldn't carry to many of them hahahahaha!) but anyway, If they were MPT's then it would have been stated. They had type VIII phasers, which seems weird but not impossible. You can put what ever type of phaser you want on to a fighter, it just won't work very well. But i doubt the early maquis would have known anything about that. As time went on, they stopped looking for phasers and just focused on PTs.

Given that a lot of the Maquis were ex-Starfleet they presumably knew what various weapons were capable of. As for the question of PTs versus MPTs, while the smaller ships (the ones they used in "The Maquis" and "Preemptive Strike") are clearly too small to carry the full sized weapons the larger versions, such as Chakotay's can carry them, as was demonstrated in "Caretaker".

Regarding fighter control, regardless of training, it's still easier to use a stick than a console.

[Teaos]

Both would have there advantages it would just come down to personal preference of the pilots. Paris likes them other don't. If joysticks had a clear advantage others would use them to.

[Captain Seafort]

Both would have there advantages it would just come down to personal preference of the pilots. Paris likes them other don't. If joysticks had a clear advantage others would use them to.

The advantages of consoles come at high speed (ie warp) flight, when course changes of fractions of a degree are required, and humans don't have the muscle control to make such small alterations with a stick. It's in slow-speed dogfights when the rapid reaction time of a stick comes into play.

[Teaos]

But to use a stick one or both hands are stuck on it. Nw you can put a few switchs on it but not to many. A consol gives you quick and easy access to lots of options. A starship fighter may have need of many more options than just direction and fire.

[Captain Seafort]

But to use a stick one or both hands are stuck on it. Nw you can put a few switchs on it but not to many. A consol gives you quick and easy access to lots of options. A starship fighter may have need of many more options than just direction and fire.

It's surprising how many buttons and the like you can fit on a stick. Put some on the stick, others on the throttle, and voice control can take care of the rest. We can do it how, why can't the Federation?

[Teaos]

Because they find a consol more reliable and user friendly.

I never said they couldn't just that a consol may in fact be superior or at least the same ease of use. There is nothing you can do on a joystickyou can't on a consol. Ever play a flight simulator game on a computer? You get the hang of things pretty fast. You also have the ability to use hotkeys to do functions quick and easy unlike a joystick.

[sunnyside]

Alright I should make a rule to never, ever, say I'm backing off of a part of a discussion....

Anyway I think the fundamental disconnect we're having is that you're seriously selling the flight computers short, and are imagining things about at a 21st century level. And that what your entering on the console is a small number of manuvers so you have to keep entering them rapidly or crash, we don't see that at all.

We're talking about a time when you have AIs like Data and The Doctor. I would not like to be in a dogfight against Data, or against a doctor type program that is as good at dogfighting as the doctor was at medicine. Now again you wouldn't actually want to make a bunch of doctor type programs to fly warships for an array of reasons demonstrated on the show when other races tried it. (And again Trek systems seem extremely vulnerable to hacking if there is some way to externally access them).

So instead you fly by having a Data-in-a-box(well one just dedicated to flying not talking and science and stuff) where a human operator has to push a button to tell the AI generally what you want it to do. Looking at some of the LCARS stuff recently it looks like the consol works by popping up button corresponding to targets and locations and you push one. Though from on screen dialogue you could also specify something like a specific subroutine to try and optimize what sort of stuff the computer will do. Still you're mostly free to remodulate something or other, pay attention to the tactical situation, or concentrate on weapons fire (which is probably also highly automated).

To further my argument that this is what's going on remember that episode of voyager where instead of just being a pilot in a box Paris got ahold of a high performance shuttlecraft where the AI was fully developed? And then of course took over his brain and forced Paris to do her bidding. Again there's another example of why you want the AI to stay in the panel and not have full control.

In short are you really saying that you think a human has a faster reaction time than Data or the Doctor?

[Sionnach Glic]

Because they find a consol more reliable and user friendly.

Unlikely. A joystick would be far more reliable, allow for greater reaction times, and fails spectacularly at blowing up in the pilots face.

I never said they couldn't just that a consol may in fact be superior or at least the same ease of use.

A computer panel would be nowhere near as quick and easy to use as a joystick. To go up, you pull the stick back. To go up on a keyboard you seem to have to press several buttons.
Which takes longer? And remember, you will never have the same reaction time on a console as a joystick.

Ever play a flight simulator game on a computer? You get the hang of things pretty fast. You also have the ability to use hotkeys to do functions quick and easy unlike a joystick.

And do you think that with experience at flight simulator games, you could go and fly and F-16? No, because in a game you don't have to worry about a mass of things a real pilot would be able to. Ever seen the cockpit of a fighter, or even a commercial airliner? They are crammed full of buttons, switches and dial. Thats for a reason.

We see, at best, a couple of panels in Trek shuttles or similarly sized craft. There clearly isn't a button for everything you would find on such a ship. This means you likely have to go through several selection meues to bring up whatever control you want, which would be pure stupidity in the middle of combat.

[sunnyside]

We see, at best, a couple of panels in Trek shuttles or similarly sized craft. There clearly isn't a button for everything you would find on such a ship. This means you likely have to go through several selection meues to bring up whatever control you want, which would be pure stupidity in the middle of combat.

I'm guessing you were writing when I posted the last bit, but your observation on the buttons is correct and is because they are, from cannon, using dedicated AIs to fly the ships.

If the argument were between keyboard and mouse vs stick and helmet designator I'd totally agree with you. A joystick is much more natural and the other stuff you said. But that simply isn't what's going on.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'm guessing you were writing when I posted the last bit,

Actually, it seems I completely missed you post. Odd.

but your observation on the buttons is correct and is because they are, from cannon, using dedicated AIs to fly the ships.

Likely to be very limited AI's.

Anyway, on to your earlier post.

Anyway I think the fundamental disconnect we're having is that you're seriously selling the flight computers short, and are imagining things about at a 21st century level. And that what your entering on the console is a small number of manuvers so you have to keep entering them rapidly or crash, we don't see that at all.

Well, to say if you stop entering commands you'll crash is rather silly.
If you stop entering commands, you will, however, stop or continue on a preset course. Which is rather bad in combat situations.

We're talking about a time when you have AIs like Data and The Doctor. I would not like to be in a dogfight against Data, or against a doctor type program that is as good at dogfighting as the doctor was at medicine.

Two problems.

1) Data is nowhere near common. Remember, the Federation never came anywhere close to building something like him. Even Data failed when he tried to create more androids (Lal).

2) The Doctor is good at medicine, but we have never seen a pilot version. Furthermore, the Doctor can't be superior to a human, otherwise they'd have him as the main doctor, rather than as a back up for a living doctor.

So instead you fly by having a Data-in-a-box(well one just dedicated to flying not talking and science and stuff) where a human operator has to push a button to tell the AI generally what you want it to do.

There's the problem. You still have to push a certain combinations of buttons to get the ship to do anything. The computer can't tell what you mean to do unless you tell it to do something. Therefore, you still need to type commands in, which is inferior to a modern system.

Looking at some of the LCARS stuff recently it looks like the consol works by popping up button corresponding to targets and locations and you push one.

That is a ridiculous style of doing things. How many buttons can you have? Compare that to how many different things a fighter would have to do, and you would still be going through a menu of controls.

Though from on screen dialogue you could also specify something like a specific subroutine to try and optimize what sort of stuff the computer will do. Still you're mostly free to remodulate something or other, pay attention to the tactical situation, or concentrate on weapons fire (which is probably also highly automated).

Have you ever tried to do something and tell someone to do something completely different at the same time while under pressure? I have, and its not easy, its almost immposible to concentrate on what you're doing, and most times you just end up making a mess of both things.
And I can't imagine what sort of stress pilots would be under in combat.
And what happens if the voice recognition system breaks? Or malfunctions? What if you take a hit and the main computer goes down?

To further my argument that this is what's going on remember that episode of voyager where instead of just being a pilot in a box Paris got ahold of a high performance shuttlecraft where the AI was fully developed? And then of course took over his brain and forced Paris to do her bidding. Again there's another example of why you want the AI to stay in the panel and not have full control.

The Federation dosen't have mind reading technology, which is what that fighter used. So this analogy is pointless.

In short are you really saying that you think a human has a faster reaction time than Data or the Doctor?

Data is unique, and we have never seen the Doctor react at super-human speeds. And remember, a modern computer is faster than a human, but it still relies on the human to input commands, slowing it down.

[sunnyside]

Alright to be clear we aren't debating console vs Joystick at this point so much as arguing what a Console does.

Again I say that frequently only a very few buttons are pressed on screen. Often battles are done simply by pushing a total of three buttons or so and letting the ship do the rest.

There is no reason why they couldn't make a Pilot the same as a Doctor or a Chef or whatever. However as you notice when you leave something like that on it goes fully sentient, and can be problematic. For example the "ethical subroutine deleted" version on the Equinox. Also it can be hacked (the episode with the sentient missile that almost destroyed the ship or a continent of innocents). You do not want a ship being hacked and then getting back into your shuttlebay.

Hence why I think the AI is contained to the ship and is interfaced only through the console, and doesn't have the full personality of a Doctor, and may not even be truely self aware. It just knows how to dogfight better than you do.

Actually we know from cannon that they are doing something like that. I think it's just a question of how effective the AI pilot is. I'm thinking at least as effective at dogfighting as the doctor is at medicine. And I don't think the EMH is a bad doctor, in fact they indicate that he is better than human, it's just you get the whole sentient hackable AI problems if you use them regularly.

[Sionnach Glic]

Again I say that frequently only a very few buttons are pressed on screen. Often battles are done simply by pushing a total of three buttons or so and letting the ship do the rest.

Yes, by inputting a code and the ship responds in a slow and wallowing maneuver. And I should point out, that every time we see combat from a shuttles interior the pilots hands never leave the control panel. They are constantly pressing buttons. Watch Chakotay when he's dogfighting with some Kazon kid in another shuttle, he was constantly pressing buttons the whole time.

There is no reason why they couldn't make a Pilot the same as a Doctor or a Chef or whatever.

Having the ability to make a sentient computer program with the ability to analyze symptoms and proscribe treatments does not mean you have the ability to replace a pilot, who has to do far more than analyze the situation.

However as you notice when you leave something like that on it goes fully sentient, and can be problematic. For example the "ethical subroutine deleted" version on the Equinox. Also it can be hacked (the episode with the sentient missile that almost destroyed the ship or a continent of innocents). You do not want a ship being hacked and then getting back into your shuttlebay.

Indeed. Given the fact that the Federation has aparently lost the mythical 'Firewall' technology, its a rather bad idea to make fully sentient fighters.

Hence why I think the AI is contained to the ship and is interfaced only through the console, and doesn't have the full personality of a Doctor, and may not even be truely self aware.

Seems likely, we know for a fact there is some sort of low-level AI on the shuttles.

It just knows how to dogfight better than you do.

Which is completely useless if the superior AI still requires a pilot to tell it what to do.

I'm thinking at least as effective at dogfighting as the doctor is at medicine.

Does the Doctor require someone to analise symptoms for him, and then tell him what he needs to prescribe? No. But the shuttle AI does.

And I don't think the EMH is a bad doctor,

I never said he was.

in fact they indicate that he is better than human,

Then why haven't Starfleet replaced living doctors, who should be far more open to making mistakes, with this Doctor?

it's just you get the whole sentient hackable AI problems if you use them regularly.

The Doctor can't be killed during a battle, a deranged patient can't attack him and kill him, he can't be infected by virii, he should be immune to human error, he should have an entire databank of knowledge at his fingertips, he should be able to perform surgery without mistakes and do a host of other things, if he was as good as you indicate. The possility of someone hacking into the Doctors program in miniscule compared to the risk of having a living Doctor.

[sunnyside]

The federation is really picky about superhuman anythings. For example they've had the ability to make augments for ages. (Khan) and could make tons of people like Bashier if they were so inclined. And you can't even hack them. But again there are problems with that the federation doesn't want to touch (again Khan).

In short no matter how much better an AI may be the Feds won't ever just use them instead of humans.

They won't even let people use stuff like VISORs or other cyberware kinds of things unless they're disabled. (Though I suppose that could again be because VISORs are hackable).

But if an AI isn't self aware and is stuck in a console it isn't so much of a problem.

I supposed I'd have to look at the Kazon dogfight again. In a dogfight kind of thing I'd expect them to have the pilot be active and pushing a lot of buttons, it's good TV, but I doubt they're pushing buttons in the way you'd have to in order to actually fly on manual. They could be tweaking engine power levels, doing stuff with the weapons, remodulating the shields etc etc etc. Tactical officers tend to keep pretty busy on ships and they certianly aren't piloting. And I'm not saying that what the pilot types in isn't important. Just that what they're typing isn't "don't hit that" it's something at a higher level.

[Sionnach Glic]

The federation is really picky about superhuman anythings. For example they've had the ability to make augments for ages. (Khan) and could make tons of people like Bashier if they were so inclined. And you can't even hack them. But again there are problems with that the federation doesn't want to touch (again Khan).

Because they find the idea of genetic manipulation moraly and philosophically horrific.

In short no matter how much better an AI may be the Feds won't ever just use them instead of humans.

There are none of the moral or philosophical problems that would come about from using augments if you use holograms. One is a computer, one is a person.

They won't even let people use stuff like VISORs or other cyberware kinds of things unless they're disabled.

1) Where did we hear this?
2) It could just be that nobody wants them, they are rather ridiculous looking. I'll stick with the glasses, thanks.

I supposed I'd have to look at the Kazon dogfight again.

That was just one example, in nearly every dogfight ever shown, we've always seen the pilot constantly tapping the controls.

In a dogfight kind of thing I'd expect them to have the pilot be active and pushing a lot of buttons, it's good TV

Its also canon.

but I doubt they're pushing buttons in the way you'd have to in order to actually fly on manual. They could be tweaking engine power levels, doing stuff with the weapons, remodulating the shields etc etc etc.

And why couldn't the computer do this itself? If its smart enough to fly the ship itself (something we have never seen happening) then it should be smart enough to do all those other things.
And we've heard the pilot tell the computer to perform these functions many times, which would logicaly point out that that's no what they're doing.

Just that what they're typing isn't "don't hit that" it's something at a higher level.

We have no canon evidence that they're doing anything but flying the ship.